Thoughts on Paulus Hector Mair

[Michael Chidester]

Actually, I think the solution to that is that he owned the Jud Lew Fechtbuch. That explains most of the content.

[Michael Chidester]

Also, I'd dispute the characterization of Mair as a "Leckuechner expert". All he did was replace "messer" with "dussack" in an existing text that he happened to have. The true measure of his expertise is in the sections that he himself authored, such as the pseudo-Gladiatoria longshield plays that you mentioned or the plays of Lutegerus that we've been discussing. His ability to hire scribes to copy other manuscripts is hardly indicative of skill or understanding on his part.

I'd hesitate before inflating the number of manuscripts that we imagine he had access to. We have a pretty clear list of what he owned, and with the inclusion of Lew it accounts for the great majority of his content. I'm still working out the genome of some of his sections, but we don't need too many other resources to account for all of it.

[James Head]

Also, I'd dispute the characterization of Mair as a "Leckuechner expert".

I'm not not saying he was. I'm saying he seems like an expert on all of these various subjects because he had so many resources to look at, compile and compare. Someone mentioned it earlier, but PHM was trying to do something very similar to your Wiktenaur project. When everything is laid down together and organized, it becomes much easier to notice related content and connections. Just think about how quickly you have been able notice related information in some manuscripts that we had previously been passing over for years.

[Joel Norman]

I tried posting this earlier, but I guess it didn't work.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the messer material in the Glasgow fechtbuch and also Peter Falkner's book derived from Leckuchner as well? While there was 15th century German material on the messer before Leckuchner, it seems to me after he came along, everyone else just regurgitated portions of his work, with some variations thrown in. Analysis of these works may shed some light on the later 'copies' of Leckuchner's verse/writings, or may raise some additional questions.

[Michael Chidester]

Glasgow doesn't use any of Leckuechner's special terminology, so I doubt there's a connection. Peter Falkner quotes sections of the same epitome as Leckuechner, but I don't think there's a direct connection there--more likely both men were drawing on an earlier common messer teaching. This is probably also why Durer uses the same terminology for his pairs of messer fencers.

Meyer, on the other hand, does seem to draw on Leckuechner as a source, though it's unclear if he's using Egenoff as his source or one of the more comprehensive versions.

[Michael Chidester]

All of the dussack fencers in Jorg Breu's sketchbook are left-handed, as are nearly all of the dagger fencers. These are also the images that were pasted into the book and not drawn there originally. The equivalent messer images in Mair's completed works are all right-handed--mirror images of those in the sketchbook (the clothing is also identical to the Dresden version, incidentally, which is unsurprising). Roger Norling has suggested to me that perhaps they were originally intending to create a printed work, which is why Breu sketched the concept images backwards, but this is just intersting speculation.

[Roger N]

And just to clarify my reasoning. The aforementioned images in Breu's sketchbook are perfectly mirrored to the images in C93, as can be seen in the composite image below.

Mirrored images occur every now and then especially in prints, not seldom as copies of artwork is made by other artists. Images that quickly come to mind are also attached and are made after originals by Jost Amman. It would seem likely that this could also happen the other way around, with preliminary sketches being mirrored versions of planned engraved plates.

This could indicate that at least the images were at one stage suggested to be engraved rather than painted. I have always found it a bit odd that a man who clearly felt that the fighting arts and social status were both very important chose to create manuscripts with single copies rather than printed volumes that could be sold in more copies. A unique book of course offered a unique value even then, if you had the right client...

This image shows a version of a Breu sketch that I have reversed to what I believe was intended. The first is from the Breu Sketchbook, the second from C93 and the third from 393, just for reference. Only the Breu image has been reversed by me.

Interesting to note in the Breu image, is that the dussacken might actually be made out of steel, which could reinforce the theory that the dussacken were wasters for the 16th cent. sabres.



These two images are reversed copies of printed Amman originals.




In my opinion none of these should be interpreted as depicting left-handed fencers, even if such images appear to exist as well.

[Michael Chidester]

Those plates remind me more of Hans Weiditz' work in Egenolff than of Paulus Hector Mair.

[Roger N]

Those plates remind me more of Hans Weiditz' work in Egenolff than of Paulus Hector Mair.

Maybe, but they are mirrored and a bit deceivingly appear to be left-handed.

[Michael Chidester]

Sorry, I misread what you wrote previously. Yes, I see what you mean now. I'm wondering at this point why the last two devices--the sword and buckler and the sickle--aren't similarly reversed.