Meyer Rappier help

[Richard Marsden]

Hello, we in Phoenix wish to try our hand at Meyer Rappier and are putting together images, thoughts, equipment and so on. We have some ideas on the swords we'll be using. Our background is largely Italian things.

Higgins' website has good Meyer images, and on the internetz I found bits and pieces of translations, but lots of material in rappier is covered earlier in other Meyer books on longsword and dussack, it being the basis of all cutting weapons.


Here is what I need for anyone interested in assisting.

1. The names of the 5 rappier guards mentioned. Internetz says there are 5 called out in rappier- true?

2. The system is cut and thrust, but most the images show the use of the point. Should I read into that as a preference of the system? Not that you can't cut, but that stabby-stabb over cutty cutt when possible when using the rappier?

3. Do you think the rappier blade needs mass? Hanwei rapiers are short, cheap, and good at cut and thrust in the 36''' blade version. The guard is a bit complex compared to the Meyer images, but the length looks good. But the blades are not very stout. Will this matter, assuming we'll be using matched blades to practice?

4. Thoughts on the footwork as per Meyer for the rappier?

Thanks for the help!

To keep the discussion from devolving, I ask that interested people answer the questions above, please don't comment on other people's answers, but feel free to provide your own. We'll figure out what works.

Thanks again for those who wish to spend the time!

[Michael Chidester]

Can't answer most of those questions, but here are some links to better images (courtesy of the BSB):

http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Gr%C3%BCndtliche_Beschreibung_der_Kunst_des_Fechtens_(Joachim_Me%C3%BFer)/Color_Images

And I uploaded all of the illustrations here: http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Gr%C3%BCndtliche_Beschreibung_der_Kunst_des_Fechtens_(Joachim_Me%C3%BFer)

[Richard Marsden]

Thanks much, late night researcher!

Edit - The Mair rappier (sp? for German style) images will be of use as well as I can see cross-over.

[Steven Reich]

2. The system is cut and thrust, but most the images show the use of the point. Should I read into that as a preference of the system? Not that you can't cut, but that stabby-stabb over cutty cutt when possible when using the rappier?

Yes and no. The system is actually quite similar to the contemporary Italian systems (which makes sense since, IIRC, Meyer says something to the effect of the Rappier being an "Italian" weapon), such as the Bolognese and "Florentine" systems, among others. In all of these, quite a lot of use is made of the cut and the typical weapons are definitely able to end fights with these cuts in a most final way (i.e. death or dismemberment). However, while the cut and the thrust might be about 50-50, I like to say that the thrust is "more equal" that the cut (this is also the time that many of the Italians start discussing the superiority of the thrust over the cut).

3. Do you think the rappier blade needs mass? Hanwei rapiers are short, cheap, and good at cut and thrust in the 36''' blade version. The guard is a bit complex compared to the Meyer images, but the length looks good. But the blades are not very stout. Will this matter, assuming we'll be using matched blades to practice?

Ideally, I'd say that you need a heavier blade. Really, I think that it should have the mass and balance such that it should require your elbow and shoulder to swing well and the blade should be rigid enough so that when one blade strikes the other (such as in a beat or a defensive cut to the opponent's blade) there will be some "bite" as opposed to a "wobble". However, that would be an ideal; as nice as it would be to have a different sword for each and every system we practice, this tends to spend us out of house and home (and the good graces of our wives). In the past, I've used lighter blades similar to what you are talking about with okay results.

4. Thoughts on the footwork as per Meyer for the rappier?

I think that the footwork you find in contemporary Italian sources (e.g. Manciolino) is pretty much the same. That is, passing steps, chasing steps, increasing steps, etc. Nothing to esoteric, but definitely more than the typical "fencing steps" of the rapier of the next century (although those are in there, too).

Steve

[Keith P. Myers]

Hi Richard!

This may help:

http://freifechter.com/files/Meyers%20Rapier%20v2.3.PDF

It is an overview of Meyer's Rappier material put together awhile back by one of the members of the Meyer Freifechter Guild.

As far as footwork.....there is no passing footwork in Meyer's Rappier section. This could be because he assumes you will have learned this from his prior chapters on the Longsword and Dussack and just automatically do it with the Rappier, but to me it seems like a glaringly obvious omission. The Dussack plays have passing footwork described even though it was covered in the prior Longsword section. So why leave it out of the Rappier section unless it is not used with the Rappier? As Steven has pointed out, I think Meyer clearly draws on Italian sources for his Rappier. But his version may have been a somewhat simplified version compared to what you see from Marozzo and the other Bolognese masters. I'm not a "Rappier guy", and I am a "Meyer guy", but truthfully....if you want German Rappier specifically, look to Jacob Sutor rather than Meyer. Sutor is in the "Meyer school" and obviously has Meyer's material as his foundation, but by his day the Rappier had evolved quite a bit and his Rappier method is more "fleshed out" than what you see in Meyer's manual. In Sutor's Fechtbuch the Rappier chapter is much longer than any of the other chapters. I started to translate it, but didn't get very far before being pulled to other things.

As far as Paulus Hector Mair....he has only 16 plates describing the use of Rappier and Dagger. He DOES use passing footwork. I have translated them, so I can clean them up and post them on the Wiktaneur if you are interested.

[Richard Marsden]

@Steven Reich

Thanks for the information. On the manner of blades. From what you are telling me, the crap-tastic smaller Hanwei's will work 'ok', but a stouter blade is in order. Any suggestions? I have no kids, my wife still loves me, and my stock market decisions have been good to me (so far), and I have a job. So, I do have money, but I try to be sensible about it when buying swords. Do you have any 100-400 dollar suggestions?

@Keith Myers

My group already performs using Italian rapier, so our delving into Meyer is more of an experiment to purposefully use an older system. If we look into Sutor will it be just like looking deeply into the Italian rapier masters (Giganti,Fabris,Capo Ferrro), or will it accomplish our goal of getting some sparring videos up that will be of use to German folk interested in Meyer or other rappier systems?

Mair - Heck yes, translate and post! And give me your thoughts on it.

Any other suggestions?

@ALL - Any video of people giving this a go?

Edit = I have the guards in text and the Meyer images from others. Before I re-invent the wheel - does anyone have the pictures attached to the names of the guards being used?


In this image the pair of fighters above the ''highlighted' figure interests me. The one on the right is very low and it looks like his sword has been beat? I don't have the text tied to the plates yet on hand. I'm curious about that low, low thrust and any comments on it.

[Joey Nitti]

for swords, you could check out http://www.alcheminc.com/longhilts.html

They have a large variety of hilts that can be fitted with their "flat-tang blade" with custom blade length. The blade is not the prettiest out there, but it's pretty darn durable. The hilts look great imo. The prices range from their "scarf sword" http://www.alcheminc.com/scarfsword.html, which is a good basic single-handed sword for $125, to their "aguirre hilt" which looks like the rappiers in Meyer http://www.alcheminc.com/aguirre.html for $170

I've personally used the scarf sword, and I like it. My instructor loves it for anything from I.33 to Meyer's Rappier. Cheap too. Alchem also has longswords for around $250 and swept-hilt rapiers for $230. I'm pretty sure that my next sword will be an Alchem. They seem to be a good middle ground between the cheap Hanwei stuff and the quality Albions.


re: Sutor - from my limited understanding, Sutor is very much Meyer's rappier with more extra content, and not a later or more italian system or anything. I think throwing in some Sutor would help a lot (if you can find a translation of Sutor's rappier section )

re: videos - I've looked, and I haven't been able to find any videos of people practicing Meyer's rappier on youtube.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I agree with KM's suggestion that Sutor Rappier is an excellent idea for how Meyer Tradition likely did their stuff.

An outrageous suggestion for filling in any gaps of Meyer Rappier lore: How about utilising various lessons from De Sainct Didier?

Hey Richard, here is what you may like to get one of these days when the school district finally congratulates with that well-deserved bonus.

Serenissima Rapier



A&A makes a variety of cool Rappier, even have training blunts (i.e. foils) too.

Enjoy,

[Richard Marsden]

And the cost? ... 770! LOL. Oh dear. The Cadillac of swords!

Alas my school has not only halted raises, they've sent my pay backwards since 2006. 10K pay cut if you can believe it. I am lucky in that I have no debt, no kids, do stock stuff, and have side projects, like my novel (novel 2 coming out soon). And I do like getting swords for myself and the club. A vice of mine!

[Michael Chidester]

Meyer allegedly learned his side sword play from Marozzo, so you should probably reference that when trying to fill in some of the blanks.