Meyer Rappier help

[Richard Marsden]

Found some rappier help online, can anyone make sense of this.

Difference between

"Hanging: Counter-cutting into his blade from below."

and

"Taking out with the Short Edge- A short edge beat from left to right."

These look similar as well as

"Slicing Off: Counter-cutting into his blade from above."

and

"Striking out with Hanging Blade- A high cut motion that strikes his blade out from left to right (beat from above)"

[Keith P. Myers]

Difference between

"Hanging: Counter-cutting into his blade from below."

---Without going back to look at Meyer's Rappier text to clarify....., off the top of my head I would think this is referring to using a "Bogen." This is the equivalent of a "hanging guard" in later broadsword/saber methods, ie., as he is striking downward you lift your hilt and catch his blow on your long edge with the point aimed downwards out in front of you. It essentially travels from right to left.

and

"Taking out with the Short Edge- A short edge beat from left to right."

---This would be the equivalent of the Bolognese "Falso Parry", ie., point up and directed forward at the opponent as you parry from your left to right with the short edge.


These look similar as well as

"Slicing Off: Counter-cutting into his blade from above."

---This one is more of a deflective parry, somewhat like the inside or outside parry with the later broadsword/saber methods.

and

"Striking out with Hanging Blade- A high cut motion that strikes his blade out from left to right (beat from above)"

---This must be the "dempfhaw." It is more forceful than the slicing off and is meant to "ground" his blade, ie., knock it straight down from above to stop his motion completely and produce a "pause" prior to your counter. It is essentially a "trapping" motion. There is no equivalent in the later broadsword/saber methods.

---I hope that helps!

[Richard Marsden]

It does, bad news for you Keith, you're now my 'go to guy' on this. The pay is lousy but the cause is great!

[Keith P. Myers]

It does, bad news for you Keith, you're now my 'go to guy' on this. The pay is lousy but the cause is great!

Meyer's rappier/sidesword is my "weak link", but I'm trying to fix that! I'll be happy to help when I can.

[Richard Marsden]

http://www.higginssword.org/guild/study/manuals/meyer_illustrations/meyer_rapier_50v.jpg
Original Plate

http://www.worksofrichardmarsden.com/Meyer%20Plate%20Underhut%20Left%20Comparison.png
Matching the two up.

Ok, so we sparred using Meyer rappier and with Alchem Aguirre hilts and safe-flex blades. The blades held up, the quillions did not on day 1 of sparring.





The mass of the blade is of some concern. Our larger gloves lead to a slippery grip, and some of the hits came in strong. I side-stepped too deep and in and took one across my back hard enough people heard it, and hard enough I'll probably wear my fencing jacket. Strong hits just about anywhere else I don't mind, but I did have a 'oh no, I'm a cripple' thought when the back shot came in.

Video of our sparring coming up, just a few minutes worth.

[Myles Cupp]

Ohhhh.... my God! Win. Just win.

[Richard Marsden]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiOyPeRRwqk

And sparring trying to stick to Meyer work.

Things to note

The blades are heavy compared to the Italian rapiers we use. So, when we missed with a thrust, the recovery time was long.

While thrusting works well, the mass of the blade lends itself to cuts.

The guards all are useful and invite (provoke) an attack which they can counter. This set up interesting scenarios where we were using invites and attacks merely as openings to other things.

The extra mass on the blades made them mildly more dangerous. As I mentioned earlier, I took a strike on the back that spooked me.

[Joey Nitti]

good stuff Richard. shame about the quillions.

it would be cool if someone was able to recreat the plates from Meyer 100%. Find some hall that looks similar, get everyone in the same clothing as in the plates, etc

[James Roberts]

I'll admit to ignoring this thread first time round, but perhaps I can give some pointers now.

The secret to all of Meyer's work is to see the work as subdivided into a glossary and a practice section. Most people obsess about the first half (lots of fancy names), but ignore the second half, where all the meat is. Meyer's rappier is the best written part of the book, but you've got to start with the devices from Straight Parrying. Here's Meyer's learning curve from that section:

1) First intention defences with thrusts
Parry-riposte (thrust) against an attack from above (Setting off)
Parry-riposte (thrust) against an attack from below (Slicing off)
Parry-riposte (cross-cut) against aggressive high attacks (Setting off)
Taking out with the long edge and thrusting (Capoferro's scannatura) against an attack below your hand
Slipping the foot and thrusting against a cut to the lower leg

2) Second intention actions with thrusts, for when the opponent bears off or threatens to bear off your riposte
Cut over and thrust when the opponent bears off your thrust (left and right)
Disengage under and thrust when the opponent threatens to bear off your thrust
Double disengage and thrust

3) First intention defences with cuts
Parry-riposte (cut) against a cut or thrust from above (Setting off)
Parry-riposte (cut) against a cut or thrust from below (Barring)
Chasing from below with a thrust (Nachreisen)
Chasing from below with a cut (Nachreisen)
Parry-riposte with two Middle Cuts
Using the Suppressing Cut against an aggressive opponent

4) Second intention actions with the cuts are not covered expressly, but are present in longsword and dussack

5) Counters to second intention defences (defending against deception)
Various techniques for hitting him as he disengages or cuts over

6) Techniques for attacking a defensive opponent
Variations on previous techniques

7) Techniques from other guards
Taking out with the short edge
Hanging
Various other variations

This syllabus is very, very good for teaching, increasing the level of sophistication in a nice fluid manner. Our first attempt at Meyer's rappier focused on the glossary at the front, and the results were not very satisfying. You need to perform moves with the right timing and distance, and the glossary is very poor at conveying these distances, and at explaining the opponent's responses. Working with the second part, we're achieving a much more fluid, intense style of swordfighting, with a much better handle on the timing and flow.

[Keith P. Myers]

Hey James!

Excellent summary and good points! Thanks! Sounds like you need to be Richard's "go to" guy, not me!