Meyer Rappier help

[Keith P. Myers]

Hey Bill!

I believe zornhut is held with the sword on the shoulder. The text makes this clear - of the zornhut, Meyer writes: "Stehe mit deinem Lincken fuß vor / halt dein Schwerdt auff der rechten Achsel" which I translate as "Stand with the left foot forward / hold the sword upon the right shoulder" (auff/auf causes confusion for English speakers who think it means "off" but it is actually a preposition which implies "on" or "upon" something (i.e. with contact) rather than off and not touching. Anyway, zornhut (or the earlier vom tag) with the sword upon the shoulder is not lazy - it's very powerful.

--I've always seen Zornhut as kind of a "wind up" position to prepare for a powerful strike. When you see illustrations of it the weight is on the rear leg and the torso actually twisted to the rear. The sword is not only on the shoulder, but the blade trails behind the back as well. That's not the same thing as just resting the sword on the shoulder because you don't want to hold it up in the air. But regardless...Meyer does not describe a zornhut with the sidesword, although he does say that everything he's talked about before can apply....so by extension you could include it. But I think it would be a risky thing to do in front of an opponent carrying a long thrusty-type weapon.

[Keith P. Myers]

Thanks for the advice Keith. I have a hard time stopping my italian rapier footwork. Not sure if it is on video or not but I reflexively did an inquartata

I thought the high guard was like the dussack Zornhut but I think that I need to look at the plates again.

I think its great that you guys are working on Meyer's sidesword! But given your "Italian" emphasis with the other weapons, I've wondered why your group didn't choose the Bolognese sources for sidesword? It might come a little more natural for you, and if it wasn't for my obvious German bias, that's what I'd be doing!

[Mike Cartier]

yes there is a lazy Zornhut in Meyer longsword, its what we call the lazy Zornhut that just sits horizontally on the shoulder and not down the back as it should (point in peripheral vision). I catch myself doing it way too much. It must be stamped out.

[Richard Marsden]

We chose Meyer because of Mike Cartier! His group gave us Dussack material to work with awhile back when I emailed him. We enjoyed that quite a bit. After we went to Dixie Krieg I decided we'd try our hand at Meyer rappier. Some of it is very similar to my early days where we used short rapiers like side-swords and with some work we hope to show steady growth, improvement and things of value. Shamelessly we'll film.

The Meyer community is very friendly. I can't tell you how many people have sent us assistance and encouragement and advice in the quest to make what we do 'right' and of value.

And so we who focus on mainly Italian rapier and Italian longsword find themselves among Germans!

[Joey Nitti]

And so we who focus on mainly Italian rapier and Italian longsword find themselves among Germans!

welcome to this side of the Alps!

[Mike Cartier]

and you're doing a great job of it Richard, you are part of that great Meyer community.

[Keith P. Myers]

Hi Richard!

We chose Meyer because of Mike Cartier! His group gave us Dussack material to work with awhile back when I emailed him. We enjoyed that quite a bit. After we went to Dixie Krieg I decided we'd try our hand at Meyer rappier.

---Ah! That explains it. And by all means, please stick with it!

And so we who focus on mainly Italian rapier and Italian longsword find themselves among Germans!

---As I'm sure you are aware, there is good evidence that Joachim Meyer found himself among Italians and learned from them! So we believe that the Meyer rappier that you are studying is likely an Italian sidesword method seen through a German "filter" so to speak, with concepts from the Liechtenauer tradition. We'd like to make direct connections to the Bolognese method, but we really don't have strong enough evidence for that....at least not yet.

[Richard Marsden]

Mike Cartier talked a bit about Meyer's travels. Very interesting and we are eager to learn more.

Here's something else to note.

So, the Phoenix Society has worked pretty hard with...

Fiore Longsword
Italian Rapier (Giganti and Fabris in particular with side jaunts)

And dabbled with (based on student/instructor interest)
Sword and Buckler
Spanish Rapier
Bartitsu Cane
Singe-Stick/Saber
Meyer Rappier
Meyer Dussack

There is a lot of cross-over. Not identical, but its the little things.

So, Fiore for example has a technique where one feints with a cut, then half-swords. The response is to half-sword right back into them.

Take that!

Oh no you didn' - I got a crown!

And in Capo Ferro rapier, 200 years later, has a similar technique.

A pass with using both hands on the rapier. One of the responses is to reply in kind. (Paraphrasing of course.)

Elsewhere I went on at length to show how slipping the leg to avoid a low attack and reply with a high can be seen in many systems. Longsword, saber, rapier!

Thus, one of the things I'm curious to find in Meyer rappier is what transfers over very well to what I've already learned and what does not. Thus far, the use of the pass as a technique for going to the close, but not other movement is 'new' to me. But the guard Eisenport is akin to 3rd in rapier, while ox on the right, point forward, is similar to a 1st variation. Not identical of course, but I see patterns. Always excited by that! In the case of Fiore for example, I think it is very neat that a technique from that time-period exists, in some form or another in later works.

One of our cousin groups we cross-train with might be getting into Marazzo side-sword. If so, it could be a good way to link up and make comparisons and contrasting notes! Good stuff and we'll be sure to report back more.

[Keith P. Myers]

Hey Richard!

Thus, one of the things I'm curious to find in Meyer rappier is what transfers over very well to what I've already learned and what does not.

---What I find interesting is its commonalities with another cut & thrust system....the 18th century broadsword! One of my favorite blades to train with is my Hanwei Scottish baskethilt. If someone saw me doing Meyer rappier with it they would probably think I was doing a "screwed up" version of Angelo and Taylor, but they would still think it was broadsword! The stance is low and forward rather than high and back as with the broadsword, but otherwise there is much in common. Eisenport is the same as the middle guard. The absetzen to either side is the same as the inside and outside guards. The right Ochs is very close to the hanging guard. The left Ochs is very close to the "half circle guard." The lack of passing footwork is similar. The basic cutting angles are the same. I would even venture to say that Meyer's Sidesword may be closer to Henry Angelo's Regimental Broadsword than it is to Salvator Fabri's rapier! But I will admit bias, because I know much more about Angelo's Broadsword than I do about Fabri's Rapier.

[Mike Cartier]

yes i agree with Richard's commonality statement. I felt watching his interpretation of Fiore Longsword that we were closer to our Meyer longsword than many of the German systems. Alot makes so much more sense when you understand Meyer as a hybrid German/Italian system.

One caveat to that is Meyer himself who takes great pains to never say where he learns shit, I think maybe because there was so many places to name perhaps, i think he did much more than grab Italian stuff to put into his German system, i think he might have put several cultural sources as would any soldier or fighter exposed to multiple cultural systems. Smart fighters learn from EVERYONE.