Spanish /Iberic Lonsword Historical Sources?

[jose_ortiz]

Spanish /Iberic Lonsword Historical Sources?

Hi,

Alguién sabe algo de fuentes históricas/ manuales originales de tradición ibérica que traten la espada a mano y media??

Does anyone knows anything about historical sources/ manuals on iberic/spanish(or portuguese)longsword tradition??

_José

[Michael Chidester]

Bueno, pues no sabemos mucho de como manejaba las espadas largas, ya que los maestros de la Verdadera Destreza eliminaron la mayoria de los tratados anteriores. Hay un tratado iberico de la montante que puedes leer aqui: http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Diogo_Gomes_de_Figueyredo. Tambien, creo que el diestro Thibault trata la espada larga un poco en su tratado.

Aparte de esos dos, no creo que haya nada.

[Michael Chidester]

O, y si nada mas quieras algun tradado que puedes leer sin traduccion, hay unos quantos tratados Italianos medievales que esten parecidos al Espanol (o en medio entre Espanol moderno y Italiano moderno).

[jose_ortiz]

Gracias. No, mi interes era saber si hay fuentes históricas de origen ibérico sobre mano y media. Se me hace extremadamente curioso que no se hayan descubierto especímenes a estas alturas de manuales u otro material. Haya alguna razón o razones para ésto?

Thanks. I m specificaly interested on iberic sources on longsword. It s really wierd that there are no surviving specimens(manuales or other material) that we know of. Is there a reason(or several) for this?

[Jess Rozek]

Porque yo creo que solamente los alemanes y los italianos tenían una tradición de la espada a mano y media... No estoy seguro por qué esto es pero tal vez los alemanes y los italianos se utilizan las espadas a mano y media en sus guerras/batallas con más frecuencia cuando otras paises luchaban con las espadas de una sola mano. Pero eso es sólo mi mejor conjetura...

I think because only the Germans and Italians had a longsword tradition... I'm not sure why but maybe the Germans and Italians used longswords in battle more frequently when other countries were fighting with single hand swords. But that's only my best guess...


*Por favor, se disculpe mi español... It's been a while since I used it.

[jose_ortiz]

I have no idea which is the reason for this. It can be something about the evolution of military technologies,economical,political....it can even has something to do with the cultural strife after WWII; I got no clue. I guess my best bet is reading as much as I can about spanish military history, on weapon catalogues/collection and keep asking. Maybe the later Destreza masters can share some light on what happend to the spanish longsword. Still, there is a Diogo Gomes de Figueyredo and the earliest Destreza masters.....it s like there is a gap.

[Kevin Murakoshi]

Please excuse my use of English for this post, my high school Spanish is quite bad.

Pietro Monte's Collectanea (1509) has been located, and includes a section for two handed sword. I know that there is an English translation effort ongoing. If you are interested in getting a hold of the text, contact Steve Hick. http://hemaalliance.com/discussion/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=736

While it is mainly Destreza focused, the Destreza.us forum (http://destreza.us/forum/) is where pretty much all of the US Iberian tradition researchers are communicating. If you ask this question there, there may be more information I'm unaware of.

As to why there seem to be no Iberian longsword tradition texts, we know:

1) We know that there was a vulgar fencing tradition before Destreza.
2) From Monte, we know that that tradition included longsword (montante) as a foundational weapon at some point.
3) Even into the Destreza period the Montante was the symbol of the Spanish fencing master. This implies that it was held in some high regard, even after Destreza became the dominant form.
4) Pacheco's attacks on vulgar fencing may have caused some of the older texts to be destroyed (we're not sure).
5) There are references to earlier texts, but they have not been rediscovered yet (if they exist at all).

In conclusion, they may still be hiding in some of the great Spanish and Portuguese libraries (like the Collectanea was), or they may have been destroyed. There certainly were texts before Destreza, we just don't have that many of them now.

Jess, that the Italian and German traditions are the best documented (and rediscovered), I think it's a bit premature to say that only the Italians and Germans had longsword traditions. There are both English and Spanish texts that deal with these weapons. That the Italian and German traditions are the best documented is without question, but to say that they are the only traditions is a bit of the stretch.

[Jess Rozek]

Jess, that the Italian and German traditions are the best documented (and rediscovered), I think it's a bit premature to say that only the Italians and Germans had longsword traditions. There are both English and Spanish texts that deal with these weapons. That the Italian and German traditions are the best documented is without question, but to say that they are the only traditions is a bit of the stretch.

Oops, I don't think I mean to come off as definitive as that however my current level of Spanish doesn't allow for conditional tenses. I think I meant that Italy and Germany seem to be the "places to be" to learn longsword and that many of the masters seem to come from there. Kind of like in later centuries where France and Italy were lauded as centers of (sport/modern) fencing. Not saying it didn't exist in other countries, but my understanding was that there were major centers of (well in this case) longsword "development" and learning and if you wanted to be a master, you traveled to these places.

Does that make any sense to you?

[jose_ortiz]

Thanks a lot Kevin,

It is curious that apparently not even in America(and I don t mean the US) a manual or similar work have surfaced. The mere idea of a discovery like this excites me. I have been sculking for a little while around mexican and spanish forums....and there seems to be no definite answer to this, which is even more confusing.

I m reading everything I got on Destreza to see if there is any mention of montante, bastarda, manoymedia there. But these manuals seem to be from the later 1600s and well into the 1700s.

On the other hand it appears that the name Montante has been used for the manymedia(hand and a half longsword) and a longer two-handed sword.which is a bit confusing. Apparently the montante became a relic of an earlier tradition but it was still used symbolically and as an instrument later on.

[Michael Chidester]

Please excuse my use of English for this post, my high school Spanish is quite bad.

They don't teach you any Spanish worth speaking in school anyway.

Jess, that the Italian and German traditions are the best documented (and rediscovered), I think it's a bit premature to say that only the Italians and Germans had longsword traditions. There are both English and Spanish texts that deal with these weapons. That the Italian and German traditions are the best documented is without question, but to say that they are the only traditions is a bit of the stretch.

Yes, the only thing that can be said with certainty is that the Germanic and Italian cultures seem to have cared a lot more about documenting it and writing books. To say that nobody else was doing it or teaching it simply because nobody else was writing the volume of books that the Germans were would be quite baseless (and keep in mind that there is really only one longsword master in the Italian tradition as well--if Fiore hadn't written his book or if it hadn't survived, we would probably be having rousing debates about why no culture other than the Germans ever taught the longsword).