Meyer Sidesword & French Smallsword

[Keith P. Myers]

I suspect Meyer's descendants had a significant impact on the development of fencing in France after his school was folded into the French school in the late 17th century. It doesn't surprise me at all that he teaches the archetypes in the rapier section as the rapier gave rise to the smallsword which was to the French what the longsword was to the Germans.

This is a very interesting thought Mike! I wanted to respond to this but didn't want to take the other thread off-topic. Do you really think its possible that Meyer's Rappier/Sidesword teaching influenced French Smallsword generations later? I see a lot of overlap between Meyer's Sidesword and the later Broadsword/Saber methods. But I don't know much about Smallsword, other than it looks alot like Sport Fencing Foil.

[Mike Ruhala]

Much of Meyer's technique and theory is strikingly modern. I haven't made a thorough study of his rapier style yet but it is clear that he was strongly tied into the line of evolution that lead to early modern fencing. The big question is how much was he just a man of his times versus how much was he a mover and a shaker? The evidence suggests he(and his descendants) were in the right place at the right time with the right knowledge to have had a profound influence. Stylistically Meyer taught a system that made extensive strategical use of multiple feints and disengagements, I don't know how typical that was of earlier German masters but it's definitely characteristic of later French fencing.

[Keith P. Myers]

I guess some of the questions we would have to ask are:

1. How much of Meyer's teaching remained when his school was taken over by the French?
2. Where there any renowned and influential French fencing masters that came out of that Strassburg school?

The overlaps with the later Broadsword/Saber methods could be attributed to the influence of Messer/Dussack technique. But I have to say that Meyer's Sidesword is a complete system in and of itself, and while it has features of and influence from his Dussack method, it is also different enough that it clearly is not just Dussack technqiue adapted for the Sidesword. That may be the Italian influence showing through.

And is there a clear link between a specific Rapier method and the Smallsword? I would think one would have to show some kind of relationship between such a later Rapier method and Meyer's earlier Sidesword method as a link in the chain from Meyer to Smallsword. But then, can you really do this kind of thing for ANY fencing method?

Still....interesting idea!

[Mike Ruhala]

1. How much of Meyer's teaching remained when his school was taken over by the French?

Probably a whole lot. AFAIK the last time he was published(before our era) was 1660 and Verolini is said to have a very strong Meyer flavor in his 1679 treatise. I would expect some drift but there should still be recognizable similarities in style.

2. Where there any renowned and influential French fencing masters that came out of that Strassburg school?

We should also try and find names of the German students of the school and track their careers. The biggest issue though is volume, not notoriety. If tons of run of the mill fencing instructors were pouring out of the Strassburg school then they in turn would be teaching multitudes of new fencers from which the next generation of masters would arise and so on.

The overlaps with the later Broadsword/Saber methods could be attributed to the influence of Messer/Dussack technique. But I have to say that Meyer's Sidesword is a complete system in and of itself, and while it has features of and influence from his Dussack method, it is also different enough that it clearly is not just Dussack technqiue adapted for the Sidesword. That may be the Italian influence showing through.

That ties in to why I find Meyer so fascinating... I train in French foil and Italian saber, Meyer had an Italian influence in his rapier and as we're discussing it seems possible that he in turn influenced French fencing. There's not a guard in French foil as I learned it that doesn't have an equivalent in Meyer's longsword. I think this may be more of a longsword thing than a specifically Meyer thing, it's pretty clear that the longsword held the same position in the Medieval era as the foil does in the modern era... sort of the starting place for all fencing.

And is there a clear link between a specific Rapier method and the Smallsword? I would think one would have to show some kind of relationship between such a later Rapier method and Meyer's earlier Sidesword method as a link in the chain from Meyer to Smallsword. But then, can you really do this kind of thing for ANY fencing method?

My understanding is that French smallsword was an adaptation of Italian rapier and we know Meyer's rapier was Italian influenced. I don't know very much at all about the rapier and my knowledge of the 17th century is very foggy so I can't provide all the specifics. I'm not saying that French smallsword is a direct continuation and adaptation, ultimately, of Meyer's rapier specifically. The way I see it Meyer's teachings were just influential, heck we know that... his treatise was reprinted for a century! Still there's a lot of puzzling evidence, such as the presence of schilts on Meyer's training rapiers and the the same in antique foils, even the "schilt" of the colichemarde that was specifically used as an aid to parrying.

[JohnPatterson]

There's not a guard in French foil as I learned it that doesn't have an equivalent in Meyer's longsword. I think this may be more of a longsword thing than a specifically Meyer thing, it's pretty clear that the longsword held the same position in the Medieval era as the foil does in the modern era... sort of the starting place for all fencing.

This sounds strange to me. Do you think that you could shoot some pictures showing the equivalent guards?

[Mike Ruhala]

I'm not real good with things like pics and vids... maybe I can find some pics online to use as examples. I'd definitely be glad to show you next time we see eachother, Dixie Krieg or Longpoint or somewhere and that would be the best way to explain it anyway. There's a lot of longsword-inspired guards in dusack and rapier so I guess it really shouldn't be too surprising.

[Richard Marsden]

I take a mildly Victorian view of this,

I see from longsword guards how side-sword guards are related, and from there rapier, and there court-sword.

Is that what you are driving at? The evolution of guards?

Edit = It's go make a video month! Give us something ,anything! A cut. A thrust. Even "Tada...I'm in a small-sword guard". It would be unique to me. I'd KILL to actually see a close up of your hand just holding a small-sword. I can't quite figure it out.

[Sean M]

The overlaps with the later Broadsword/Saber methods could be attributed to the influence of Messer/Dussack technique. But I have to say that Meyer's Sidesword is a complete system in and of itself, and while it has features of and influence from his Dussack method, it is also different enough that it clearly is not just Dussack technqiue adapted for the Sidesword. That may be the Italian influence showing through.

That ties in to why I find Meyer so fascinating... I train in French foil and Italian saber, Meyer had an Italian influence in his rapier and as we're discussing it seems possible that he in turn influenced French fencing. There's not a guard in French foil as I learned it that doesn't have an equivalent in Meyer's longsword. I think this may be more of a longsword thing than a specifically Meyer thing, it's pretty clear that the longsword held the same position in the Medieval era as the foil does in the modern era... sort of the starting place for all fencing.

Be careful with the sentence in italics. As far as I know, before the manuals nobody would have said that the short two handed sword was an especially prominent weapon in the 15th century; and with the 15th century manuals our view is heavily centred on the Germanies (and two Lombards with strong German influence). Its very likely that longsword was particularly important in the parts of Latin Christendom that spoke German, especially in the context of formal single combat, but that plenty of masters started with S&B or another form.