Meyer's Ablauffen

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Meyer's Ablauffen

Postby Dustin Reagan » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:32 pm

Could I please get a non-Rasumusson translation of the following:

Ablauffen.
ISt / von welcher Handt du dem Mann an sein Schwerdt bindest / so verkehr in dem es riert dein Hand / und laß mit halber schneid undersich ablauffen / und zuck under des dein Hefft ubersich in die höh zum streich / und solches treib zu beiden seiten.


I had a request to make a video of my interpretation of this handwork, and I wanted to double-check my interpretation against a better translation.
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Re: Meyer's Ablauffen

Postby keith cotter-reilly » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:45 pm

Dr. Forgeng's:
Running Off [ Ablauffen] This is, from whichever side you bind your opponent's sword, then reverse your hands as soon as it touches and let it run off with the short edge down, and meanwhile pull your hilt up in the air for a stroke; and do this on both sides
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Re: Meyer's Ablauffen

Postby Jonathan Allen » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:20 am

The Meyer 1560 translation has several passages on the topic that may prove useful as well.
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Re: Meyer's Ablauffen

Postby Darijan R. » Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:05 am

Dustin Reagan wrote:Could I please get a non-Rasumusson translation of the following:

Ablauffen.
ISt / von welcher Handt du dem Mann an sein Schwerdt bindest / so verkehr in dem es riert dein Hand / und laß mit halber schneid undersich ablauffen / und zuck under des dein Hefft ubersich in die höh zum streich / und solches treib zu beiden seiten.


I had a request to make a video of my interpretation of this handwork, and I wanted to double-check my interpretation against a better translation.


M's Ablaufen is a passive Moulinet where he attacks and you void and attack yourself (you let it run off). M's (Umb)schnappen became a similar action but the attacking edge is changed (basically Twerhaue in the vertial plain.
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Re: Meyer's Ablauffen

Postby Dustin Reagan » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:26 am

Thanks for the Forgeng translation, Keith!

Darijan R. wrote:M's Ablaufen is a passive Moulinet where he attacks and you void and attack yourself (you let it run off). M's (Umb)schnappen became a similar action but the attacking edge is changed (basically Twerhaue in the vertial plain.


Thanks, Darijan. That is very similar to how I interpreted Ablaufen. However, I don't think that it's required that he is attacking you (or vice-versa). Instead, this is just a handwork that one can do from a bind that is about to occur.

How do you see Umbschlagen? I personally see it as basically Twerhaue to the other side, with the short edge or flat (flick) in the horizontal plane.
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Re: Meyer's Ablauffen

Postby Darijan R. » Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:21 am

Dustin Reagan wrote:
Darijan R. wrote:M's Ablaufen is a passive Moulinet where he attacks and you void and attack yourself (you let it run off). M's (Umb)schnappen became a similar action but the attacking edge is changed (basically Twerhaue in the vertial plain.


Thanks, Darijan. That is very similar to how I interpreted Ablaufen. However, I don't think that it's required that he is attacking you (or vice-versa). Instead, this is just a handwork that one can do from a bind that is about to occur.


To do Ablaufen, you need his sword. You also need it to be directed strongly towards you or somewhere else. If you pre-disengage you are doing Zucken. Ablaufen means to let it run off with a strong link to "water (river, rain etc.) running off". Something that ain't there, can not run off.

How do you see Umbschlagen? I personally see it as basically Twerhaue to the other side, with the short edge or flat (flick) in the horizontal plane.


Umbschlagen (striking over (to the other side)) is the general principle of changing attacks from inwendig to auswending (inside to outside) and can be done with Oberhau and Twerhau attacks as well as others like, as you correctly mentioned, the Schneller (flick). It is often used to describe what is happening while another technique is used: Wenn du mit der Twer umb schlägst (as phrase often seen in Meyer) -> When you with the Twer strike over.
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Re: Meyer's Ablauffen

Postby keith cotter-reilly » Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:46 am

Darijan R. wrote:
Dustin Reagan wrote:
Darijan R. wrote:M's Ablaufen is a passive Moulinet where he attacks and you void and attack yourself (you let it run off). M's (Umb)schnappen became a similar action but the attacking edge is changed (basically Twerhaue in the vertial plain.


Thanks, Darijan. That is very similar to how I interpreted Ablaufen. However, I don't think that it's required that he is attacking you (or vice-versa). Instead, this is just a handwork that one can do from a bind that is about to occur.


To do Ablaufen, you need his sword. You also need it to be directed strongly towards you or somewhere else. If you pre-disengage you are doing Zucken. Ablaufen means to let it run off with a strong link to "water (river, rain etc.) running off". Something that ain't there, can not run off.

How do you see Umbschlagen? I personally see it as basically Twerhaue to the other side, with the short edge or flat (flick) in the horizontal plane.


Umbschlagen (striking over (to the other side)) is the general principle of changing attacks from inwendig to auswending (inside to outside) and can be done with Oberhau and Twerhau attacks as well as others like, as you correctly mentioned, the Schneller (flick). It is often used to describe what is happening while another technique is used: Wenn du mit der Twer umb schlägst (as phrase often seen in Meyer) -> When you with the Twer strike over.


+1

Pretty much how I see things. I am guilty of using Abluafen on weaker binds, or before I make contact. But I do feel like a stong-ish bind is required.

Also I view Umbschlagen as being Meyer's catch all term for actions that go over/around the blade like Darijan describes. So stuff like Abnemen, from the older sources, or Schneller, etc. would fall other this.
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Re: Meyer's Ablauffen

Postby Dustin Reagan » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:48 am

Darijan R. wrote:
Dustin Reagan wrote:
Darijan R. wrote:M's Ablaufen is a passive Moulinet where he attacks and you void and attack yourself (you let it run off). M's (Umb)schnappen became a similar action but the attacking edge is changed (basically Twerhaue in the vertial plain.


Thanks, Darijan. That is very similar to how I interpreted Ablaufen. However, I don't think that it's required that he is attacking you (or vice-versa). Instead, this is just a handwork that one can do from a bind that is about to occur.


To do Ablaufen, you need his sword. You also need it to be directed strongly towards you or somewhere else. If you pre-disengage you are doing Zucken. Ablaufen means to let it run off with a strong link to "water (river, rain etc.) running off". Something that ain't there, can not run off.

How do you see Umbschlagen? I personally see it as basically Twerhaue to the other side, with the short edge or flat (flick) in the horizontal plane.


Umbschlagen (striking over (to the other side)) is the general principle of changing attacks from inwendig to auswending (inside to outside) and can be done with Oberhau and Twerhau attacks as well as others like, as you correctly mentioned, the Schneller (flick). It is often used to describe what is happening while another technique is used: Wenn du mit der Twer umb schlägst (as phrase often seen in Meyer) -> When you with the Twer strike over.


Thanks for your thoughts on Umbschlagen. Regarding Ablaufen: To clarify, when I said "...from a bind that is about to occur.", I meant this less as in it's a handwork that is done without blade contact, and more to say that it is done as soon as the blades clash. Thus, in practice, I often (perhaps wrongly? what's your opinion?) start the preliminary mechanics of Ablaufen as soon as I see that a certain type of favorable bind is about to occur. The contact still occurs, but in the contact, his blade almost immediately runs off mine.
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Re: Meyer's Ablauffen

Postby Ben Floyd » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:09 am

Dustin Reagan wrote:Thanks for your thoughts on Umbschlagen. Regarding Ablaufen: To clarify, when I said "...from a bind that is about to occur.", I meant this less as in it's a handwork that is done without blade contact, and more to say that it is done as soon as the blades clash. Thus, in practice, I often (perhaps wrongly? what's your opinion?) start the preliminary mechanics of Ablaufen as soon as I see that a certain type of favorable bind is about to occur. The contact still occurs, but in the contact, his blade almost immediately runs off mine.


This sums up how I feel about it. If I see someone going to defend strongly against my cut, I'll use ablaufen to allow them overcommit to it. I want blade contact, but it shouldn't be much presence there to stop them. The blade contact gives me time to abort if they aren't doing what I thought they'd do.

I really like using it with the thrust more, though. I've been planning on making a video this weekend about how to perform absetzen or ablaufen against a zorn. If they continue with the zorn to your head, you perform the absetzen easily. If they see the point incoming and set it aside, you ablaufen. This gives you the Vor, effectively. It's a very high percentage stuck for me.

The way I do it gives you a lot of time with fuhlen on the blade to determine your action, but really he tells you how he wants to be hit. :P
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Re: Meyer's Ablauffen

Postby Darijan R. » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:25 am

Dustin Reagan wrote:
Thanks for your thoughts on Umbschlagen. Regarding Ablaufen: To clarify, when I said "...from a bind that is about to occur.", I meant this less as in it's a handwork that is done without blade contact, and more to say that it is done as soon as the blades clash. Thus, in practice, I often (perhaps wrongly? what's your opinion?) start the preliminary mechanics of Ablaufen as soon as I see that a certain type of favorable bind is about to occur. The contact still occurs, but in the contact, his blade almost immediately runs off mine.


Yeah, Indes and stuff right? :D
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