Jake Norwood wrote:Hrm. I'm happy to entertain the notion and try to identify stuff that you should know before you hit the stuff in the manuals, but that isn't your list, either…so putting most of the Hauptstucke right out seems pretty arbitrary.
Potentially. My memories of the Directives might be colored by the first five, which are confusing as hell to my new folk. It's true that my eyes are opened and the teachings of the Book of Liechtenauer are clear to me, but I earned that clarity through seven years of training and study.
Jake Norwood wrote:What's in the Hauptstucke? From memory...
- 5 cuts
- 4 guards
- Displacing (Versetzen), parrying with a cut
- Setting Aside (Absetzen), parrying with a guard
- Over-running (Uberlauffen), the principle of reach and upper vs. lower openings
- Pulling (Zucken), striking to the four openings vs. hard or parries
- Changing through (Durchwechseln), thrusting to the four openings vs. parries
- Running through (Durchlauffen), basic Ringen am Schwert
- Travellng After (Nachraysen), basic application of Nach/After
- Slicing off (Abschneiden), the "four cuts."
- Pressing the Hands (Hende Trucken), a specific application of slicing
- Hangings/Windings (Hengen/Winden), how to fight am-schwert
- Hews, Slices, Thrusts (Drey Wunder, in some versions), the ways to hurt a guy
Your list has
- Openings (no sweat on forgetting that one)
- Basic grappling
…which adds up to 9 of the 17, depending on how you slice it.
Inline responses would make this thread impossible to use, so let me comment in bulk. Your version of the Haupstucke is appealing, but flawed in several ways. The emphasis on the 5 cut sections is not on the cutting--again, no exposition of how to cut and only brief notes on when to cut--but rather on complex and confusing winds that arise from the cuts. The Vier Versetzen do not relate to parrying at all, but rather breaking guards with cuts (an odd use of the word, actually). There's nothing basic about Durchlauffen. And Abschneiden/Hende Drucken is a specific type of winding, not a general introduction to slicing; likewise Durchwechseln and thrusting.
Jake Norwood wrote:So what constitutes a fundamental?
I propose that instead of saying "father strikes" or any specific set of strikes (as an example), perhaps we phrase it as how-to's, like Mark did:
- How to perform an attack (cut, thrust, or slice)
- How to stand (with and without a weapon)
- How to step (when performing a cut, thrust, slice, or not)
- How to time your attack or defense in relation to the opponent
- How to choose your target (where to attack - openings)
- How to not get hit (void, parry, etc.)
- How to deal with grappling as it applies to whatever art you're studying (okay, this is a hand-wave, I admit)
What I like about this approach is that it's very non-weapon, Martial Art, or tradition-specific. These are basic, fundamental questions that every beginner should be able to answer about his/her art (and perhaps fighting in general). It begins to cover your question because each of these arts/traditions/approaches/weapons/whatever *must* struggle with these questions.
Is this getting closer to what you're looing for? I think I missed the mark in my first opus three posts back.
This looks like essentially a restatement of my earlier list, with the added items of choosing targets (essentially, openings) and defending against attacks, both of which additions I approve of.
I'm sorry if I haven't been clear on this, it's not a fully-formed idea yet. But I think you're closer now that you were before. What knowledge do the manuals seem to assume that you have going into them?