Fundamentals of swordsmanship

[Michael Chidester]

Hrm. I'm happy to entertain the notion and try to identify stuff that you should know before you hit the stuff in the manuals, but that isn't your list, either…so putting most of the Hauptstucke right out seems pretty arbitrary.

Potentially. My memories of the Directives might be colored by the first five, which are confusing as hell to my new folk. It's true that my eyes are opened and the teachings of the Book of Liechtenauer are clear to me, but I earned that clarity through seven years of training and study.

What's in the Hauptstucke? From memory...

• 5 cuts
• 4 guards
• Displacing (Versetzen), parrying with a cut
• Setting Aside (Absetzen), parrying with a guard
• Over-running (Uberlauffen), the principle of reach and upper vs. lower openings
• Pulling (Zucken), striking to the four openings vs. hard or parries
• Changing through (Durchwechseln), thrusting to the four openings vs. parries
• Running through (Durchlauffen), basic Ringen am Schwert
• Travellng After (Nachraysen), basic application of Nach/After
• Slicing off (Abschneiden), the "four cuts."
• Pressing the Hands (Hende Trucken), a specific application of slicing
• Hangings/Windings (Hengen/Winden), how to fight am-schwert
• Hews, Slices, Thrusts (Drey Wunder, in some versions), the ways to hurt a guy

Your list has

• Cuts
• Guards
• Openings (no sweat on forgetting that one)
• Hews/slices/thrusts
• Basic grappling

…which adds up to 9 of the 17, depending on how you slice it.

Inline responses would make this thread impossible to use, so let me comment in bulk. Your version of the Haupstucke is appealing, but flawed in several ways. The emphasis on the 5 cut sections is not on the cutting--again, no exposition of how to cut and only brief notes on when to cut--but rather on complex and confusing winds that arise from the cuts. The Vier Versetzen do not relate to parrying at all, but rather breaking guards with cuts (an odd use of the word, actually). There's nothing basic about Durchlauffen. And Abschneiden/Hende Drucken is a specific type of winding, not a general introduction to slicing; likewise Durchwechseln and thrusting.

So what constitutes a fundamental?

I propose that instead of saying "father strikes" or any specific set of strikes (as an example), perhaps we phrase it as how-to's, like Mark did:

• How to perform an attack (cut, thrust, or slice)
• How to stand (with and without a weapon)
• How to step (when performing a cut, thrust, slice, or not)
• How to time your attack or defense in relation to the opponent
• How to choose your target (where to attack - openings)
• How to not get hit (void, parry, etc.)
• How to deal with grappling as it applies to whatever art you're studying (okay, this is a hand-wave, I admit)

What I like about this approach is that it's very non-weapon, Martial Art, or tradition-specific. These are basic, fundamental questions that every beginner should be able to answer about his/her art (and perhaps fighting in general). It begins to cover your question because each of these arts/traditions/approaches/weapons/whatever *must* struggle with these questions.

Is this getting closer to what you're looing for? I think I missed the mark in my first opus three posts back.

This looks like essentially a restatement of my earlier list, with the added items of choosing targets (essentially, openings) and defending against attacks, both of which additions I approve of.

I'm sorry if I haven't been clear on this, it's not a fully-formed idea yet. But I think you're closer now that you were before. What knowledge do the manuals seem to assume that you have going into them?

[Jake Norwood]

I'm sorry if I haven't been clear on this, it's not a fully-formed idea yet. But I think you're closer now that you were before. What knowledge do the manuals seem to assume that you have going into them?

No sweat. And it's always challenging to think out loud on a forum, 'cause folks aways want to turn the conversation their own way. I'm no exception, clearly.

It seems the real question here, and perhaps the more useful background question, is, "What knowledge do the manuals seem to assume that you have going into them?" In which case I think the "How" model is still the correct approach, but the questions' content is a bit different.

How does one cut effectively?
How does one step and stand effectively?

These are the uderpinnings, right? When you say fundamentals, we're not talking fundamental techniques, but rather fundamentals *of* technique. Am I on the right track here?

Jake

[Jake Norwood]

Your version of the Haupstucke is appealing, but flawed in several ways. The emphasis on the 5 cut sections is not on the cutting--again, no exposition of how to cut and only brief notes on when to cut--but rather on complex and confusing winds that arise from the cuts. The Vier Versetzen do not relate to parrying at all, but rather breaking guards with cuts (an odd use of the word, actually). There's nothing basic about Durchlauffen. And Abschneiden/Hende Drucken is a specific type of winding, not a general introduction to slicing; likewise Durchwechseln and thrusting.

BTW, I do want to talk about all of this, but I left it out of this thread because it would derail it outside of its original purpose.

Jake

[Michael Chidester]

Feel free to break it off and make a new thread.

These are the uderpinnings, right? When you say fundamentals, we're not talking fundamental techniques, but rather fundamentals *of* technique. Am I on the right track here?

Prezactly.

[Dan Sellars]

Feel free to break it off and make a new thread.

These are the uderpinnings, right? When you say fundamentals, we're not talking fundamental techniques, but rather fundamentals *of* technique. Am I on the right track here?

Prezactly.

Would this be known going into learning this though? Any more than say a modern gymnast or wrestler would know before turning up at a sword class?

Is learning this not the point of practicing the Art*. To me it is not 'fundamental' in the sense of what you know before but 'fundamental' in the sens of what you learn through it. If some one already knows this then they do not need techniques, or rather techniques are just 'stuff' to do with this 'fundamental' base.

* whether specific or pan european, which ever way you swing.

[Michael Chidester]

That's a fair point, but at the same time, many of the fundamentals of technique are techniques in themselves, just more basic ones. For example, choosing targets and learning how to strike go hand in hand, and they can be taught independent of any specific technique.

[Stewart Sackett]

One of my Jiu-jitsu coaches had a definition of fundamental that I tend to use. His definition was this: It’s something you have to be able to do in order to be considered good at the art, it’s something you have to be able to do without thinking & it’s something that everyone will do more-or-less the same way.

So, for example, there might be some techniques from the bind that you love or hate & others feel the opposite those would not be considered fundamental, but for anyone to be considered competent with a sword they need to be able to feel the bind & wind appropriately (soft with the weak, hard with the strong, etc.) & do so without stopping to think “oh, he’s pressing his strong to my weak so I can disengage & bring my point around for a thrust”. Regardless of personal style or body type the physics of binding & winding don’t change much. They’re fundamental. What you chose to do from your bind is up to you...

One coaching method I’m partial to is the “posture, pressure, potential” model.

The idea is you start by demonstrating a particular position & the posture that is best for that position. If you have new people & they’ve never seen that before then they can focus on developing proper posture, because that’s what they need before they can effectively apply what comes next.

Next you show the basic movement options (the pressures) from that posture & those who’ve got their posture down start to focus on these. People still struggling to develop posture are welcome to try the pressures, but encouraged to keep their mental focus on posture & not worry about remembering anything else until their posture is engrained.

Finally you show some specific technique or strategy that can be applied by the application of various pressures from the starting posture. Essentially any play in a fight book could be considered a specific potential.

Using this model, someone’s first lesson with a Longsword might progress like this:

They’re shown how to hold the weapon & how to stand in the basic guards. This is Posture.

They are shown the basics of footwork & how to move, letting their weapon transition between guards as they step. This is Pressure.

They are shown simple cuts & thrusts that can accompany their movements & allow them to transition between guards. This is a very simple potential.

There’s something that I really enjoy about coaching the absolute basics & I’ve put together some simple games/drills to work on such material. My own list of bare bones material for new people (& the order in which I’d present it) is:
· Basic guards, footwork, cuts & thrusts
· Voiding, more footwork & the use of distance
· Focus on the guards
· Using Kron to achieve a bind
· The Bind
· Hanging position
· A few basic wrestling techniques with the sword
· The master cuts
After running through that stuff I think people should be encouraged to dig through the manuals & find for themselves techniques that suit their temperament.

[Jake Norwood]

I like that model, Stewart.

Jake

[Jeramy Gee]

Yes, that is certainly a good model. I also like the idea presented earlier of presenting the material through questions. If the student knows which questions are being asked, and then answered, by the instructional session then the student is much more likely to develop theoretical appreciation for what is going on and develop a considered approach in practice.

Having some general fundamental principles on hand that can be offered to students and demonstrated through drills and free-play is also useful, especially when these are linked up to the questions one is addressing. I've found Tinker Pearce's list here http://aemda.com/viewtopic.php?t=17 very useful. Here they are without the explanations attached:

1.)The best defense is not to be there when the attack arrives.
2.)Stack your defenses.
3.)Never commit to an attack unless you control or have negated your opponent's weapon.
4.)Once you have established control of an opponent's weapon never yield that control until your opponent is incapable of continuing the fight.
5.)Be weak in the face of strength and strong in the face of weakness (Having worked with him recently, I've learned that Tinker now puts this one as "Yield before strength and follow after weakness.)
6.)Never pursue a failed technique.
7.)In practice you have a partner- not an opponent.

The last one (7) is, of course, a training principle, not a fighting principle. I would also add things like:

8.)Always present a threat to your opponent.
9.)Step with each attack.

And things like that. Some timing principles would be good, too.

Having something like Christian Tobler's decision trees on hand couldn't hurt either.

As flawed as it is, we might even consider developing something like sport fencing's Tactical Wheel as a pedagogical tool. At any rate, that could be an interesting exercise.

[Michael Chidester]

Here's the first draft of the model we've worked out. This represents the first three months or so of training for a new scholar.

Phase 1: Basics (3 Months)

• Anatomy of the Sword - blade, edges, flat, tip, center of percussion, center of balance, strong, middle, weak, cross, shield, hilt, handle, haft, pommel. (Also flanges.)
• The three times; Vorschlag v Nachschlag
• The three ranges (free, at the sword, at the arms)
• The three phases (the approach, the battle, the withdrawal)
• Middle Stance (Mittelwaage); if the other two come up, they still won't be emphasized.
• Basic Footwork - Step, Pass, Pivot, Turn; stepping around the Segno
• Five Basic Wards - Ochs, Pflug, Alber, Tag, Kron
• Proper Technique for Cutting - dropping weight into the cut (full cuts only during phase 1)
• Proper Technique for Thrusting - twisting the hips, etc.
• Proper Technique for Raking - pushing and controlling with the sword, not just dragging the edge
• Basic Cutting - cutting the Segno, beginning with the four basic strikes
• Basic Thrusting - the five thrusts (four hangers plus long point)
• The Four Openings - finding an opponent's openings in real time
• Fighting from the guards
• Covering and beating (double-time counters, although explaining stesso tempo and dui tempo waits for phase 2)
• Basic grappling technique