Both hands on longsword grip?

[Francesco Lanza]

This is absolutely and completely baseless, since we aren't talking about the same weapon or even context at all, but I can say that the first thing I learned while I and my pals learned by studying Meyer's polearm is that your hands has not be riveted to the shaft, and indeed they need to travel alot on its lenght. Of course Meyer shows his sword fencers playing with the pommel like a juggler plays a contact ball and IIRC no one is shifting his grip to both hands on haft, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try and see how this last trick goes with your techinque.

Michael, an off topic question for you since you have a lot of studies and references under your eyes: years ago I read that somebody dated one of the English fencing manuscript to the end of 14th century because of the letters and vocabulary used. Do you remember something about that?

[Michael Chidester]

Michael, an off topic question for you since you have a lot of studies and references under your eyes: years ago I read that somebody dated one of the English fencing manuscript to the end of 14th century because of the letters and vocabulary used. Do you remember something about that?

That would be the so-called "Man yt Wol" (or man þt wol, "The Man That Would...") treatise, in the MS Harley 3542. It seems to date from the turn of the 15th century, but it's tough to narrow it down further than that. It is indeed roughly coeval with Fiore and the 3227a, though, you're right. Hard to tell which is oldest, actually, since only Fiore had the decency to give us a proper date (and only in one of the four extant texts).

Terry Brown has studied the text extensively and could tell you more. I'd link to the article he wrote on the subject, but it seems to have been removed from scribd at some point in the last year.

[Francesco Lanza]

all right, so we indeed have at least three contestants for the pretty useless but shiny badge of the oldest longsword treatise ever

[Mike Cartier]

pommeling is, IMHO, absolutely essential to the Meyer Longsword system. Also IMHO, you gain significant leverage for under angled cutting and you gain length in striking as well.

[Jordan Hinckley]

I think a lot of it depends on what you are (or intenting to) do. This is the fun part to me of our art, and something I try to teach every new person I work with. You have to do what feels the most comfortable for you, fighting as you fight. Holding by the pommel can give you greater flexibility in the twitch, as you are essentially rotating around your central point of the lead hand. where as it is harder to rotate when the trail hand is "fixed" as it were on the grip. However that being said, I know some people who drop their lead hand when they go into a thrust, thus extending their reach, and I would think that his would leave you with much less control in the thrust if your hand was on the pommel compared to if it were above the pommel. Again, my take is to look at what feels the most comfortable and gives you enough flexibility. For me, I keep my trail hand above the pommel, but that is what feels comfortable to me. It also allows pommel strikes which though I don't do often, I find easier to do when my hand is not there.

[Peter S]

Let's not get too derailed here. Noone I've ever heard of denies it's normal and right to use multiple grips in different contexts, including holding the pommel. The thread started about that Hs3227a quote. Let's not waste ink telling ourselves that both hands together is not the only way ever to hold a sword.

[Ben Floyd]

Let's not get too derailed here. Noone I've ever heard of denies it's normal and right to use multiple grips in different contexts, including holding the pommel. The thread started about that Hs3227a quote. Let's not waste ink telling ourselves that both hands together is not the only way ever to hold a sword.

+1

[Jason Taylor]

I go with an off-the-pommel grip myself, but remember that I'm using a scent-stopper most of the time, and so I do what Michael mentioned earlier (back on page 2, I think)--I grip the shaft of the scent stopper with my pinkie and ring finger, or thereabouts. I find this has the best control of any cutting method I've tried so far.

Jason

[Michael Chidester]

Let's not get too derailed here. Noone I've ever heard of denies it's normal and right to use multiple grips in different contexts, including holding the pommel. The thread started about that Hs3227a quote. Let's not waste ink telling ourselves that both hands together is not the only way ever to hold a sword.

Actually, the thread started by suggesting that the quote was The Gospel According to St. Liechtenauer, and then asking for speculation on why no one else does it the way 'Liechtenauer' does:

It is assumed Codex Dobringer states these words are from Liechtenaur himself (Possibly when he was still alive.)

But you see in most manuals that have images showing the fighters with a hand on the pommel.

I'm curious on your thoughts.

In that context, demonstrating that it's not gospel or the One True Way of holding a sword is key to the discussion (or in my case, pointing out that the connection to Liechtenauer is probably quite tenuous).

[Mark W]

In that context, demonstrating that it's not gospel or the One True Way of holding a sword is key to the discussion (or in my case, pointing out that the connection to Liechtenauer is probably quite tenuous).

Yes, no one is saying it's the one true way.

I'm sayig it's a good way. I also do a grip similar to Mr. Edelson's. I used to grip the pommel as well. It took me a little while to switch, but have been very pleased with the results so far.

Best regards,

-Mark