Judging...

[Dustin Reagan]

All that said, your remarks on the color affecting judging are definitely worth looking into.

In the interests of pedantry and egotism, those were my remarks. =]

[Mark W]

Just because there are other martial arts where a black belt has meaning doesn't mean a damned thing, because we are not practicing those martial arts. Likewise, black uniforms in HEMA only mean what a particular HEMA school wants them to mean.

I couldn't agree more.

What's true is that TODAY many historical fencers are wearing black. It's becoming very common, to the point where I saw black uniforms advertised on a fencing supply site for "knight" activities (i.e. historical fencing). If fencing manufacturers noticed that HEMA people are wearing largely black, then that's actually quite telling. It might not be traditional for classical fencing, but it's becoming traditional for us, here and now. Besides, letting the opinions of those who often derided us and still do in the first place dictate our uniform choices is just silly.

Besides, no one from Toyama Ryu cares how I tie my obi for the battojutsu I do, and Mr. Edelson can confirm that. They don't care what colour my hakama is (it's dark blue, but should be black). They don't care that I don't train in a hakama for kenjutsu (I train in samue), because it's none of their damn business. Same for HEMA.

I don't think classical fencers care about how we dress anyway. My gambeson is black. I like it. If they DO care, they obviously don't have enough to do and should be training more. I wouldn't care if sport fencing decided that purple and pink polka dots was now official. Good for them, more power to 'em. Hope it doesn't run in the wash.

Best regards,

-Mark

[Mike Ruhala]

I think that Mike already addressed the concerns that Andy & Michael raised with the clause I highlighted above. I'll paraphrase it: If you view yourself as isolated, great, exactly. do whatever you please. If you want to share with, or be associated in any way with the other surviving branches of Western swordsmanship, then at least give it some consideration.

Exactly. It's not like I'm the boss of HEMA or something anyway. I'd also point out that I spent a lot of time and money developing a commercially available historical fencing uniform. It comes in four colors, one of which is in fact black. If you want it it's there for you and I hope it serves you well.

I've been studying historical fencing in one form or another for going on a decade and a half, I've seen all kinds of stuff come and go. I'm convinced that the best way forward for all three of the main branches of Western swordsmanship is together, not in isolation. I train in historical and classical styles, I also fence with the sport guys. In my world it's something worth thinking about, YMMV.

[Mike Ruhala]

Besides, letting the opinions of those who often derided us and still do

That's a perfect example of why I believe the best way forward is to get all the branches communicating and working together in a productive fashion.

[Mike Edelson]

There is a difference in working with and respecting other arts and allowing their uniform conventions to dictate your own. I respect classical fencers and take any and all opportunity to interact with them (and any other serious students of the sword), but if there is a classical fencer who resents our wearing of black, then I want nothing to do with him, not because he is a classical fencer, but because he is an ass.

[Mark W]

That's a perfect example of why I believe the best way forward is to get all the branches communicating and working together in a productive fashion.

All well and good, but to what end? I sent those guys an email asking that the false information be removed, and got no reply. No surprise there.

I've always had good experiences with sport fencers personally. They are not their association. However, there are other living branches of western swordsmanship, such as Hungarian sabre and Khevsur sword and buckler. Should they adopt modern fencing uniform standards too? No, that would be silly. Should we adopt theirs (assuming they have one)? No, that would be equally silly.

Just as silly is to expect classical fencers to adopt our uniform standards. Historical fencers often wear black. It's becoming the standard, because it works for us. Adopting 19th Century uniform standards to pursue 15th Century sword arts doesn't really make sense. Once the classical and sport fencing communities realize "ah, black uniform, reinforced fencing mask... historical fencing" all this will be a non issue, and then we can all play together.

Best regards,

-Mark

[Dustin Reagan]

Historical fencers often wear black. It's becoming the standard, because it works for us.

Why does it work for us? I still haven't heard any compelling explanation for why Historical fencers should prefer a black uniform. Because it looks cool? Because it's not white? Because it's already become a "tradition"? Because there may be some historical precedent? Because there's no rule against it in tournament play, and that makes it harder for the judges to score hits against us (i.e. it offers us an advantage in tournament play)?

Only those last two reasons have any validity, in my opinion.

I wish that Mike R. hadn't brought up the whole "Classical/Sport fencers may be offended by our wearing of black uniforms issue". To me it's a red herring that gives the more stubborn/chip-on-the-shoulder among us a reason to keep on wearing black uniforms, when there are pragmatic reasons (having nothing to do with "respect" or "tradition") to wear light, evenly colored uniforms.

I'll give one more practical reason for wearing light colored (preferably white) uniforms:

Safety.

A bleeding fencer will be very hard to spot in a black uniform. Blood will be spotted much more easily by observers or the opponent if the fencer is wearing white. A bleeding wound is not safe for the fencer nor is it safe for the opponent.

[Ben Floyd]

You possibly haven't considered that we use white plastic blades for fencing during tournaments quite often. White on white is harder to see than white on black. For steel tournaments, white is easier to see a weapon on than black, so I agree there... but I still don't like white. One reason for that is actually keeping it white is more of a pain than a darker color.

[Dustin Reagan]

White on white is harder to see than white on black.

Even with the colored tape on the blade? I guess I'd have to see it in person to agree.

Also, it's not just an issue of the color of the blade vs the color of the uniform. It's an issue of subtle shadings that give clues as to body positions and movements. For instance, the position of a fencers arms against his own body can tell you a lot about where in space his weapon is. With a black uniform, it's much harder to get a good sense of where a fencer's arms are in relation to each other and his torso (since your brain has almost no shadow information to go on). This is very simple to see, even in a video.

You could be right, though, that the lack of contrast between white blade & white uniform (though you'll still have shadow information from the blade onto the uniform) outweighs the other perceptual benefit.

[Lee S]

As a Historical Martial Artist, who has zero modern fencing training, or any interest in modern fencing, I see the color thing as irrelevant.

Personally my school colors are black and gold. Thus we wear black and sometimes tan and black.

Will I stop wearing black if someone demands it.

No.

What classical fencers, or modern fencers choose to do to mark mastery of their art is their own business. Since we have no historical masters (they have all been dead for a long time), and I do not see our community recognizing anyone in the next 10 yrs, I think its safe to say that when we do, we can give them a masters patch, armband or something that stands out.

In regards to the safety issue, Dustin, I can personally assure you that if you are stuck with a longsword, a rapier, or something else with a wide blade (even a knife).

You will know instantly, as will everyone else around you, regardless if you are wearing brown, red or black.

I am much more interested in the material of the fencing jackets we are using, its long term durability, and puncture resistance, mobility and its ability to lessen impacts.

For example, if there is a tournament where someone dictates that you can not wear black, I do not tend to fence in said tournaments. The person running the tournament makes the rules, if I do not like the rules, I do not enter. It is that simple.

Many other people feel the same way.

As for the question of judging blows... well white nylon shows up well on black better than it does on white or cream.

As does the silver color of polished steel.

We are forging our own traditions... we have some similarities to our classical/modern cousins.

However, although we may be similar, we have to remember that are not the same.

And eventually we will have our own traditions, and ways of honoring those who standout in the HEMA community.

Cheers,