Rapier and Cuts

Discussion of historical combat techniques and their application.

Re: Rapier and Cuts

Postby Piermarco T » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:34 am

Richard Marsden wrote:@Steven

I have seen on the ARMA site Alfiere's work and the dotted lines leading to the cut, but I don't have the text so I am not sure if he is like Fabris and Capo Ferro with a block o' text on why to thrust over cut, or if he's comfortable with both. This would alter my opinion or at least vary it and add depth.



Alfieri discusses to point vs. the cut in Chapter XVIII on his book one. He prefers the point to the cut but is also ok with the latter, stating that cuts from a short or broad blade or from a strong arm are to be just as feared as points.
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Re: Rapier and Cuts

Postby Myles Cupp » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:05 am

On the issue of cuts, while Richard has cited some textual examples of Fabris' take on the cut, I still think its telling that he would include this chart:

From ARMA's website:
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The riverso squallambrato (sic?) is targetted at the right shoulder. The riverso tondo goes for the torso.

Basically, even if Fabris has his ideas for how to defeat the cuts (and I mostly agree with him on his take on cuts) he still has to take some time to tell us how to defeat them; which means, of course, that a significant number of his contemporaries were using cuts freely in their fencing which further implies that they must've felt some compelling reasons to want to use them.
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Re: Rapier and Cuts

Postby Richard Marsden » Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:22 pm

@Myles

Here's my take on that chart. It shows direction not targeting so much. That tondo cut would be to a hand in my opinion, or even the face, not the body, especially with a rapier as seen in Fabris. I point to text and the fact I can't find (yet) in Fabris indicating there are body cuts, or even shoulder cuts! I will not cry if proven wrong, but I need to see plates and/or text. Thanks for showing the chart though, so I can give my own 2 cents on it.

My other example of the chart differing for direction is the chart seen in some Fiore Texts is similar, yet the text differs with what is suggested. IE - Chart shows 45 degree cut (like shoulder to hip), text says 'teeth to knee' and 'knee to teeth'. I tend to favor text over image in that case and it has helped with my technique.

Basically, even if Fabris has his ideas for how to defeat the cuts (and I mostly agree with him on his take on cuts) he still has to take some time to tell us how to defeat them; which means, of course, that a significant number of his contemporaries were using cuts freely in their fencing which further implies that they must've felt some compelling reasons to want to use them.


I think so, yes. I even think that the plates in Giganti, and Fabris that show how to block a high cut to the head must have been common- otherwise why show how to defeat them? And I think that's the issue. How to defeat them and why not to rely on them (in the case of Fabris and Giganti and a bit on Capo Ferro if we take their text at face value.)
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Re: Rapier and Cuts

Postby Sean M » Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:57 pm

I think its the advice on how to learn to cut in di Grassi which tells you to always pull your blade through the wound after you cut. If not its in the introductory section on theory. I don't know how this compares to 17th century rapier.

I think both weapons and fencing theory influence the emphasis on thrusts in late 16th and early 17th century Italian sources ... swords and theory were both changing in this period. Obviously, if you are in a low, stretta guard then thrusts are more natural than cuts ...

Steve, Fiore also seems to swing to the head and arms and thrust to the head and chest. I suspect that if he had taught sword and buckler leg cuts would have appeared too as they do in the Bolognese sources :)
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Re: Rapier and Cuts

Postby Richard Marsden » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:31 pm

Cuts in Fabris

I did find one plate in Fabris showing a cut to the leg in sword and cape. Plate 105. Every other sword and cape plate depicts a thrust. I found none in dagger, none in single rapier, none in his advanced rules. Alert me if one finds otherwise.

In the preceding text to sword and cape there are examples on how and when to cut to the leg or head and a few cuts that are not given specific targets. Pg 144 in Leoni's translation.

Place this against the 100's of other plates showing the thrust, and the text of the master on his opinion of cuts, and I think it's fair to say, 'cuts are rare' in terms of Fabris.

Body Cuts in Rapier

If anyone finds text and or plates suggesting a body cut in rapier, do share. My current opinion is 'no'. Same goes for shoulder and upper arm. I love to be proven incorrect, so if anyone does wander across examples, share!

Thanks for those who sent me manuals on Alfiere, who uses the cut more so than say Giganti, and thanks to those who took the time to post the segno.
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Re: Rapier and Cuts

Postby ChrisWalters » Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:43 pm

Alfieri seemed to be a pretty big fan of cutting... I think this was a little interesting

From my translation:

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Above you will see figure 8 who is performing the stocatta longa (lunge) which consists of a great deal of the fencing style. To learn this, it is necessary that one’s hand, sword, foot, and shoulder be in one motion. If this is done, then you will move with velocity and with little chance of parrying by your opponent. This does not happen in the First or the Second guards as they are too slow and too weak.

It is a grave error that many who wish to perform the stocatta attempt to do so with great force and with their bodies overextended and in doing so are unable to recover safely and put their lives in peril. Though from the enemy, this attack comes without threat and the reposte without alarm and they are able to return to their guard and be soon out of measure.

There are two principle cuts the Mandritto and the Riversio that wound descending and also two minor cuts that wound ascending, the Montante and the Sottomano

The Mandritto is of two sorts, the Fendente and the oblique, or sgalembro. The Mandritto is illustrated in Figure 8 and the sword is along line G and cuts from A to F. The Sgalembro cuts from B and ends at D. The Riversio also has two sorts, the Fendente is the same and the oblique cuts from C to E.

The Montante and Sottomano begin on line H and travel from F to A. The Montante comes from the right and the Sottomano comes from the left, and is illustrated in figure 9.


La presente figura 8. insegna à tirare la stocatta longa è gagliarda, e in questa consiste gran parte della scherma, per imparare à tirarla bisogna ritrovarsi nella guardia mista, e in un tempo unire à far questo moto, la mano, la spada, il braccio, il piede, e la spalla, con queste circostanze si allonga il colpo, va con velocità, ed è poco meno che irreparabile, il che non accade nella prima, e nella seconda guardia per esser di gran longa più deboli, e più tarde.

Grave errore è di molti che volendo tirare una stocatta sforzata precipitano talmente col corpo quasi distesso fino à terra, che non potendosi riavere restano come abbandonati nel pericolo della vita, mentre dal nemico vengo parata. Il nemico che nel ferire non si salva, è perso, e non si può salvare se non con ritrornare nella sua guardia doppo essere uscito prestamente di misura.

Due son I tagli principia, Mandritto, e riversio che feriscano cadendo, e due di minor considetazione, che feriscano ascendendo, e sono il montante, e il sottomano.

Il mandritto è di due sorti, fendente, e oblique, o sgalembro, il mandritto fendente verrà mostrato dalla figura 8. che insegna à portar la spada da G,A,F, La obliquo da B, fino à D. Due ancora sono iriverci, fendente, e oblique, o sgalembro, il rivercio fendente camina da G,A,F la obliquo da C in E.

Il montante è sottomano cominciano dalla linea H,F verso A, I mandritti, e montante cominciano dalla parte sinistra ,I riverci, sottomani dalla destra, si come nella figura 9, appare




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In Figure 11, we learn the thrust from the fourth where the cavalier shall return to the mixed guard. You shall observe that once he notices that his enemy has arrived in measure, at that same instant and with every speed available, he will place the attack in one of three places. The manner of which it is used in the duel will rely on practice and prudence so that one may escape without harm.

Beyond all manner in the execution of the stoccata longa of the Fourth, there are three principle ways to hit the enemy. The first is to raise the sword along line A and attack to the Third on the outside. The second pretends to be high in A and canters the sword in B but the lunge will come with a lowering of the body.

Finally comes the third in the line C. It begins with the same pretense of a lunge to A but instead one times a riversio to the right leg. Some feel that it is better to turn the blow in behind the head and then deliver the blow, however, they deceive themselves. Though it is a more lively blow, it has lost it’s objective because your enemy can see it. They head should follow the blow and push with the shoulders. Otherwise, the blow will be weak, short and without effect.


Impariamo dalla figura 11. à tirar di Quarta il colpo che habbiamo proposto, egli si ritrova nella guardia mista, e osservati li scoperti del nemico, giunto in misura, e preso nel medesimo instante il tempo hs con ogni velocità contro il nemico, io posto in terza scaricata la botta, Maniera di ferire usata ne duelli, ed essendo praticata con le dette cautele difficile ad essere sfuggita

Oltre all maniera di tirare la stoccata longa di Quarta, può ancora in tre modi colpire la inimco. Il primo sarà di alzare la spada nella linea A, e ferir di terza di fuori. Il secondo col fingere alto in A, e calar la spada in B, e tirar il colpo di seconda abbassando il corpo.

E finalmente andar can la medesima finta di A, nella linea C, e voltar un rivercio alla gamba destra. Son alcuni che nel tirar il colpo approvano il volgere in dietro la testa quando si tira la botta per ferire, questi si ingannano perchè con tal movimento si perde la oggetto, ne si possono vedere la operazioni del nemico, sono la occhi le nostre sentinelle, e però bisogna che rimirino donde si temeno la offese, e la testa deve accompagnare il colpo, spingen dola con la spalla, altrimenti se nel ferire si ritira; il colpo diventa debole, corto, e senza effetto.
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Re: Rapier and Cuts

Postby Steven Reich » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:13 am

Alfieri definitely includes the cut as an alternative action more than any other early 17th century Italian author.

@Richard

There are other plates with cuts...they are the plates where the swordsman cutting "loses" the action. Now looking at Fabris in general, I don't think that this makes the argument that the cut was a "bad" action--after all, the other plates depict the losing swordsman as thrusting (which clearly isn't a bad action). That doesn't mean that Fabris didn't think that the thrust was mostly preferable to the cut, but it also doesn't mean that the cut would not have been employed (he even tells us what kind he prefers rather than saying never to use it). However, even with that, I guess cuts are still 'uncommon' in his material as presented.

I definitely agree with the target selection (or perhaps, target restriction). The rapier isn't generally going to dismember sometime with a cut and I think it is not just a matter of tactics that determines target selection but also a matter of effectiveness.

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Re: Rapier and Cuts

Postby Richard Marsden » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:14 pm

@steve

Yes, I forgot the 'failed' cuts so to speak. Thanks for reminding me. Thanks for your comments!
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Re: Rapier and Cuts

Postby Robert R. » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:47 am

Richard Marsden wrote:
Here's my take on that chart. It shows direction not targeting so much.



Kinda late to this, but Fabris does actually refer to the cuts as to where they land on the target. I don't have the text in front of me, but I believe it's in the last chapter before the plates, where his segno appears. Minor detail, as it doesn't change anything to anyone, just how Fabris himself defines them.
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Re: Rapier and Cuts

Postby ChrisWalters » Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:21 am

My take from the plates in Alfieri is that it's more of a commentary on timing and distance rather than a knock on cutting... He repeatedly comes back to the concept of measure.. though, he is clear that thrusts are better than cuts... but does not discount them.

Example - in plate 10 he says "To attempt to deliver a cut while your opponent is in measure raises the hand and invites an attack."
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Another Example - As we have already demonstrated the lunge in the first part, where the time of the hand should return in the lunge with the movement, forming the circumference of the circle by which the opponent will advance into. As we see, the opponent has made a drastic attempt without correct distance. The illustration was drawn in order to clarify and to give it true proportions. Because he has the correct measure and tempo, he has a great advantage over his opponent. The Art is governed by cuts, lunges and feints to a cut or a thrust. One should avoid the cut and make use of the thrust when possible as the length and the speed of the movement will not place them in as much danger.
The figure above requires little explination. The Cavalier in Fig. 20 is positioned in the third guard to attempt a mandritto as we can see. Since he has not first led with a feint or a thrust, he has not found the distance to hit the leg.
Second, he has not disrupted the sword of his opponent, nor has he attempted a thrust and then resolved to cut, or even pretended to cut with a rivercio, but rather he has shown the mandritto.
The Cavalier in Fig. 21 has pulled back his feet and is not in fear of a mortal would. He has extended his arm in the above manner, and therefore is superior, his blow comes openly to the chest. He may also attack along line A, for a mandritto to the head, or along line B with a rivercio to the sword arm.



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