Footwork in the Liechtenauer tradition

Discussion of historical combat techniques and their application.

Re: Footwork in the Liechtenauer tradition

Postby KeithFarrell » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:33 am

Michael Chidester wrote:
Bill Carew wrote:I don’t think each master or period focussed on one preferred balance. Rather, I now think each balance has always had its place in the overall system, for e.g. when far away and out of distance, a high balance is useful for mobility, during zufechten and initial krieg, the middle balance is a nice compromise between stability and mobility and right up close, at grappling and throwing distance, the low balance is especially useful for keeping your centre of gravity underneath that of your opponent. The transition from one balance to another should be tightly controlled, smooth and fluid rather than the aforementioned bobbing or bouncing during the steps.


I agree completely. This is what I've been teaching for the last three or four years.


Likewise I agree, this is what I have bee teaching for the last year. Well, it's what I have been teaching for the last few years, but I only managed to come to the conclusion that this point of view was supported by the various sources (as opposed to being useful but not necessarily supported by the sources) about a year ago :)

My personal opinion of "die Waage" is that sometimes you can be high, sometimes low, sometimes in between; sometimes with your weight forward, sometimes with your weight back, sometimes with your weight in between. As long as you remain in balance and you can move fluently between the various ways of standing, I would say that you are in "die Waage". Mair does go and break it down quite a bit further, and that's cool; we can see that he thought it was important to have three heights of fighting. None of the earlier masters thought it was important enough to specify in their texts other than to say that one must be balanced.

The way I see it, if someone only ever practices a low stance then they will be good at that, but when the situation calls for a high stance it might be a problem. Ditto for someone who only practices high stances, sometimes a situation does indeed call for a low stance. Admittedly someone who practices low stances will always have an easier time adapting up the way, it is much more difficult to make your stance deeper when you only ever practice a high stance. So we might as well practice low stances (good muscle workout at the very least) but we should be perfectly comfortable changing our hight and weight in the stance as long as we always remain balanced.

I have an interesting note from the karate point of view. Traditional karate up until and including the time of Gichin Funakoshi (so until a little after the second world war) used quite high stances. Even these days, some karate schools still teach high stances. Funakoshi's son Yoshitaka (aka Waka Sensei) did a lot to move karate forward and to introduce new things to the art. Here is a brief but interesting section from a book by the technical director of the karate organisation in which I practice:

William Haggerty, 'Game for a Fight', pages 77-78 wrote:Yoshitaka Funakoshi or Waka (Young) Sensei

Harada Sensei told me many stories about Waka Sensei and most of them amounted to describing a dynamic, energetic and thoughtful karate-ka who basically became the figurehead of modern day karate. Indeed many of the aspects of our practice have been influenced by this man. One of these was the development of the side thrust kicks (ke komi). Harada Sensei described a situation when the senior students were practicing and Waka Sensei struck out a stamp kick which would normally have been a low kick to the leg but instead he raised his foot and struck out to the body. The way Harada Sensei described the event made me think that in some way even Waka Sensei was surprised but from that moment on, side stamp thrust kicks became part of a martial artist's weaponry with many able to strike all parts of the body from toe to head.

Another example of practice influenced by Waka Sensei is the deep stances used in many karate groups. Harada Sensei explained to me that Waka Sensei spent many hours practicing makawara (striking post) and when he did this he was looking for perfect technique and power. My understanding of what is meant by perfect technique and power is the ability to use the body in a natural way and generate energy through the technique which passes through the body that is being struck. Waka Sensei's practice to develop this, was to stand in horse riding stance (kiba dachi) side on to the striking board (makawara) he would then turn his front foot and as his body turned creating a torque like action, he would release his hand from his side to propel it forward and strike the target. Harada Sensei demonstrated this to me on several occasions and it is clear that it produces a strong powerful technique. Due to the long hours practicing, Waka Sensei naturally dropped his posture, firstly to make sure his body was stable and as he did this he naturally lowered his gravity into a deeper stance. While this was happening, he and others recognised that the practice was very hard but developed strength in the legs as well as good technique and so encouraged everyone to practice in this way, thus deep posture became a part of training. The action of moving from kiba dachi to strike the makawara also created what was considered to be a new posture, i.e.e fudo dachi (immovable stance) seen in the picture above and this particular stance became very popular.

After having spent many years practicing these postures, I should point out to the reader that they are very useful for specific purposes such as those mentioned above; however it is important that the practitioner learns and understands how the movement produces energy so that they can put that into all the skills that they train and practice in. They should also recognise that this is a basic practice to learn a particular skill and these low postures are not necessarily the right thing to use when doing other things such as sparring. However, the technique of developing the energy should be carried forward through all practice.


Although that passage relates to karate, I'm sure we can draw the parallel to western martial arts. Apologies for going off on a bit of a tangent but I think this passage is relevant to the notion of balance and stance in longsword fighting.
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Re: Footwork in the Liechtenauer tradition

Postby KeithFarrell » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:38 am

Jeffrey Hull wrote:I offer the following as a plausible & basic interpretation. :arrow:

Footworks

There are three distinct and elementary “footworks” in Ritterlich Kunst; thus the fighters pedestrian mobility while fighting; which tend to be as follows:

Schreiten = Stepping: You pace forwards, backwards or sideways; via either foot or both feet; within any radius of your circumference; to cover short distance.

Treten = Treading: You stride forwards, backwards or sideways; via either foot or both feet; within any diameter of your circumference; to cover medium distance.

Springen = Springing: You leap/jump forwards, backwards or sideways; via either foot or both feet; across & beyond your circumference; to cover long distance.

The advantages of this triad interpretation are accordingly threefold:

1. All three footworks are named and known foot & leg movements in German Tradition Ringen (wrestling) and Fechten (fencing) of the Liechtenauer, Gladiatoria & Nürnberg Lineages; which help to forcefully animate main moves of wrestling e.g. Greifen, Zwirch, Werfen (clinching, thwarting, throwing) and fencing e.g. Stichen, Hauen, Schneiden (thrusting, hewing, slashing); which work naturally with the universal principle/kinetics of Waage (balance/scales); which cover the ranges of Zufechten, Krieg, Abzug (encounter, engagement, disengagement); and moreover, they are congruent with the True Time of Silver Lineage of English Tradition Fencing.

2. All three footworks are readily & easily understood by the beginner; and provide him/her, quite literally, the proper foundation upon which to build any variety of motion while either wrestling or fencing zu Fusz (afoot); whether Blosz (bare) or Harnisch (harness); and of course as dictated by tactics, targets and terrain.

3. All three footworks are basic to the totality of footworks; and thus any specialty is merely some permutation of one of those basic three: i.e. cockstepping, gathering & switching are simply Schreiten; i.e. compassing, crossing, passing, traversing & triangulating are simply Treten; i.e. leaping, lunging & jumping are simply Springen. Understanding their differences are most helpful to understanding the proper dimension/measure at which to engage, thus how to get close to or away from foe to make your attacks work. ~

Copyright 2011 of Jeffrey Hull.

:)


Thanks for the input Jeffrey, I remember seeing you post these thoughts somewhere else on the forum. They make a lot of sense. You say that these terms can be found in the Gladiatoria and Nürnberg texts as well as the Liechtenauer system - my question here is whether they are found in the earlier part of the Liechtenauer tradition (e.g. HS.3227a, Codex Danzig, Kal or Talhoffer sort of era) or a little later (e.g. Goliath or Codex Ringeck sort of era) or quite a bit later (e.g. Mair or Meyer sort of era)? Or are the same terms found throughout the tradition?

I'm sure your thoughts are very valid, it would just help to be able to place them better in a discussion comparing footwork at different times within the extended tradition :)
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Re: Footwork in the Liechtenauer tradition

Postby KeithFarrell » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:38 am

And a general thanks to everyone for the input, I think this is indeed an interesting discussion. Please keep the thoughts and ideas coming!
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Re: Footwork in the Liechtenauer tradition

Postby W.T.Heinz » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:49 pm

I agree with the uses of the three heights mentioned earlier. Recently I noticed our groups stances were getting higher and higher so we've been doing mobility drills in deeper stances, with focused attention to torque and springing. While higher stances can be more mobile a deeper stance can be very mobile and the tension generated in the legs is conducive to springing.
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Re: Footwork in the Liechtenauer tradition

Postby Mark W » Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:34 am

Good thread.

I don't have the knowledge of German useage that Jeff does, but his model does seem to coorespond to some stuff in JSA, modifying your footwork for various differences in range and tactics. Mike Ruhala is certainly on to something with his descriptions of Meyer's guys and lunges.

Take a look at this HNIR video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwR9loZxk0A

Note the transition from Upper Waage to Lower as the range decreases. Now, it's being performed in a shrine so the range is somewhat compressed, so bear that in mind. Another thing to remember is that HNIR is a ryu that it focused on learning the fundamentals of swordsmanship, especially in its longsword teachings as shown in the video. If you want to know what fundamentals of swordsmanship can "look like", that's it, even if it's not KdF. Nothing fancy, just fundamental blade work and footwork. No volta stabile though that I can see. All passes and gathers on and off the line at varying ranges.

Same deal with the short sword:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7LDXpAohjQ

Note how low and wide he goes when closing to grappling range.

Best regards,

-Mark
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Re: Footwork in the Liechtenauer tradition

Postby Jason Taylor » Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:45 am

Jesse Eaton wrote:Keith,

Jason Taylor, also from Kron, had his translation of Mair on wiktenauer just today: http://www.wiktenauer.com/wiki/Paulus_H ... #Longsword


Hey, Jesse. Good discussion; I'm lurking heavily right now.

Just as a quick correction, I believe that link takes you to the longsword material, which was actually translated by Keith Myers. Mine is actually the Flail section, soon to be accompanied by Peasant Staff, scythe, etc.

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Re: Footwork in the Liechtenauer tradition

Postby Jesse Eaton » Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:21 am

DOH! Jason, When you said you were translating the PHM on witkenauer, I assumed it was a continuation of the translation we worked on in class. Of course this what I get for ASSuming....

I do have a question about how one would go about establishing what counts as a high stance v. a mid stance v a low stance. How would we know which level of stance we are using? What is a method for determining between the three ranges?
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Re: Footwork in the Liechtenauer tradition

Postby Michael Chidester » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:52 pm

High - Middle - Low

    Image

Of from Mair:

High - Middle

    Image

Middle - Low

    Image
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Re: Footwork in the Liechtenauer tradition

Postby Jesse Eaton » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:44 pm

Michael,

Is it fair to say that high is feet closer than shoulder width apart, middle is between 1 and 2 shoulder widths apart and low is 2+ widths apart? Or is that over simplification?
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Re: Footwork in the Liechtenauer tradition

Postby Michael Chidester » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:37 pm

That's exactly how I explain it to new people, generally. There are other nuances involving balance and center of gravity, but that will get you most of the way there.
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