You've brought this up before, what exactly are you talking about? Are you saying there's a better translation than Forgeng's available or do you have some other Forgeng book that's an interpretation of his translation?
---I'm not talking about his translation. I'm talking about his interpretation. If you look up the Sturzhau in his index in the back of the book, he gives his own brief description of it. That is his interpretation, independent of his translation of Meyer's text.
In the meantime these two translations seem to be in agreement,
Mike Rasmusson wrote:Plunge Strike
Although this strike is an Over Strike, be aware that between one and the other lies a minor difference, from which comes this strike’s name of Plunge Strike, that one strikes through by plungeing from above, and that the point comes against one’s opponent’s face from the Ox, and can thus be executed from the start or pre-fencing.
Jeffrey Forgeng wrote:Plunge Cut
Although this cut is a High Cut, and so considered because there is not much difference between the two, yet this is called the Plunge Cut because in cutting through, it always plunges over above, so that the point comes against the opponent's face in the Ox; and it is most used in the Approach or Onset.
---I agree with you. As I noted above, I think the problem comes in how you interprete this passage. Meyer says that the strike is an Oberhau that strikes through by plunging over from above. He does not say you do an Oberhau first, and then the Sturzhau. The Sturzhau IS an Oberhau, just with the short edge instead of the long edge.
I see variations, which are very common in Meyer, not problems. This is probably something that's a lot easier to discuss face to face with the book and swords in hand.
---That's why I posted video. I figure that's at least a step closer to face to face.
Clearly, the action with the Dussack is not a two step motion,
Again, I really don't see it. In fact the first place I checked after reading the vague sturtzhauw description in the longsword section was the sturtzhauw from the dusack section,
In the Onset, step and deliver a High Cut from your right, going back through beside your left, so that your dusack shoots back around above your head, or plunges over, such that after plunging around, the tip of your weapon points back at your opponent's face, not unlike the left Steer, except that you must thrust the point further forward from you toward your opponent's face. It has its name from this plunging over, otherwise it is essentially just a High Cut.
I don't see how that's not a two step action. He goes on to describe a method of executing many of these "combos" in a row to close distance on your adversary.
---If you are going to count that as a two step action, then you still have a problem. Because that is different than how you noted with the Longsword. So it wouldn't be consistent. And if you are going to conclude from that passage that it is a two step motion, then how do you reconcile it with the other Dussack passages?
2.22r: concerning the Stier posture of the dussack: this posture is not unlike the Sturz, and is one of the best postures from which all kinds of techniques can be executed
2.23r.1: do an Oberhau and cut so strongly that your dussack shoots back around over your head into the Sturz, that is into the left Stier.
---Neither of those suggest a two step motion. Note that the second passage above says to do an Oberhau that shoots back around INTO the Sturz. That suggests to me that the Oberhau and the Sturz itself are considered two different things. Both passages equate the Sturz to the Stier position. So I interpret that to mean that the dropping motion from above that ends in the Stier IS the Sturz.
Meyer keeps saying he wants it to be after an oberhauw that brings the blade down beside you then up around your head and finally into that short edge oberhauw we agree on.
---He doesn't say that in all cases. So if you are going to define the whole thing as the Sturz, then you are making Meyer inconsistent.
If you don't mind my asking how does your interpretation of sturtzhauw here relate to what you said earlier about Meyer's sturtzhauw?
He has purposefully changed some techniques and plays to make them more workable in the "schulefechten" environment. For instance, he changed thrusts to the face from Ochs into Sturzhau.
---This goes back to what I said earlier in this thread:
"Meyer does what Mike is describing a lot as far as a short edge strike to the head from various set ups and in various devices. But he never seems to give it a name. He clearly says that with the Longsword the Sturz is used at Zufechten. So I tend to think if he intended for that blow that happens in the Handarbaiten stage to be called a Sturz, he would have said so. But.... I am not entirely convinced of that myself. After all, the same blow with the Dussack is called a Sturz, and it isn't used only in Zufechten. Now, Paulus Hector Mair does the same thing....he delivers a downward short edge blow to the head in the Handarbaiten stage with both the Longsword and Dussack...and he calls it a Schiller! Mair uses the same terminology that we use for the Meisterhau blow, but as a generic term for any short edge blow to the head. Meyer doesn't do this, he just seems to leave that particular blow nameless. So we could call it a Sturz by default, or call it a Schiller like Mair does. But that's a whole other discussion!"
---My premise was that any time you see that short edge strike to the head in the Handarbaiten stage, whether we call it a Sturz or a Schiller, you could replace it with a thrust to the face from the Ochs position and the device would still work just fine. By doing the short edge strike to the head, the device becomes a bit safer for practicing with someone who isn't wearing a fencing mask. After you pointed out the fact that early in his book Meyer recommends doing some practicing in armour, it occured to me that might include the open face helms we associate with the Landsknechts. In which case, targeting the top of the head/helm with the short edge blow rather than thrusting into your partner's exposed face would be a lot safer!
---But I'd also like to point out to those (not Mike) that seem to think that Meyer is "only schulefechten".....if you recognize and acknowledge the relationship between that short edge blow to the head and a thrust to the face, then you can easily switch from the short edge blow back to the thrust for any "ernstfechten." So Meyer has not "tamed" his swordsmanship for practice as a hobby. He has just come up with a training method to allow one to learn more effectively.
Keith P. Myers
Lifetime Member HEMA Alliance
Affiliate: Bartitsu Society & Cateran Society
Friend: Meyer Frei Fechter Guild