Krumphau: how I see it (with the other 4 for good measure)

[Bill Grandy]

Anders made the excellent point in his Zwerch class in Houston that if you're just throwing the cut out from the shoulder you're doing it wrong.* The proper technique is to move the sword in front of you to cover if necessary and then snap into the cut. The initial extension keeps you from getting hit by his cut, even if it's also a Zwerch.

* I'd say it's wrong as a half cut, but proper technique for a full cut.

I did that for a number of years, but have since changed my mind. I'd say that its important that you're *able* to do this. Cory Winslow pointed out to me a couple of years ago that Lew says that you can turn your flat on your shoulder ahead of time so that you can quickly snap the sword out ot the side for the zwerch, which shows that it can't be wrong to do the zwerch that way. Also, try test cutting with an arming sword with a zwerch. If you don't have enough arc, it doesn't really do much.

[Michael Chidester]

Exactly. The wide Zwerch goes from the shoulder sideways, the half Zwerch goes forward and then snaps sideways.

[Christian H. Tobler]

I did that for a number of years, but have since changed my mind. I'd say that its important that you're *able* to do this. Cory Winslow pointed out to me a couple of years ago that Lew says that you can turn your flat on your shoulder ahead of time so that you can quickly snap the sword out ot the side for the zwerch, which shows that it can't be wrong to do the zwerch that way. Also, try test cutting with an arming sword with a zwerch. If you don't have enough arc, it doesn't really do much.

Yep Bill, you and Cory changed my mind on this. If you're too 'sneaky' with your Zwerch and conceal it too much, it's easy to get undercut. Fencing is often about drawing a desired response from your enemy - if he thinks you're striking an Oberhau and goes to defend it, and you strike a Zwerch instead, he'll likely go under your sword.

And, yes, I love that Lew mechanic!

Cheers,

CHT

[Christian H. Tobler]

Hi Bill (Carew)!

I like your diagrams a lot. The only thing I *might* change is showing the Schielhau along the left side of box, downward. I know your intent isn't for the center of the box to represent the center of the opponent, but I think that might still better drive home the idea that the Schielhau locks out the attack by closing the line off left of center.

Otherwise, very nice stuff (and again, I'm not passionate on the above point by any means!).

Cheers,

CHT

[Jake Norwood]

Yep Bill, you and Cory changed my mind on this. If you're too 'sneaky' with your Zwerch and conceal it too much, it's easy to get undercut. Fencing is often about drawing a desired response from your enemy - if he thinks you're striking an Oberhau and goes to defend it, and you strike a Zwerch instead, he'll likely go under your sword.

You know, I have that problem...Interesting. I'll have to play with this some more (Cory and I discussed this, but not long enough, last summer...)

Jake

[Christian H. Tobler]

Yikes Kevin! What in my quoted post deserved this sweeping condemnation? All I said is that I'd move the Schielhau line over.

But now that you mention Meyer, yes, he does seem to extend the meaning of Krumphau. But in the earlier sources, it's an Oberhau performed crookedly, from either side. So, no, in the 14th and 15th century works, the Krump can't be done from all lines - Hs. 3227a explicitly calls it an Oberhau.

It's ok to disagree with mine, Bill's, or anyone's interpretation or teaching aids, but please - let's not go around accusing people we barely know of purposefully perverting the art. That's not fair.

Best regards,

Christian

[Christian H. Tobler]

Hi Jake!

You know, I have that problem...Interesting. I'll have to play with this some more (Cory and I discussed this, but not long enough, last summer...)

Yes, I seriously over-trained the idea of concealing the 5 blows, so much so that I ended up defending lines my opponent didn't know to attack! The other thing that happens is that if you strike with concealment, your Zwerch can be pretty weak, as Bill Grandy said earlier. I really like the advice in Lew to chamber the blow with the flat resting on the shoulder. Man does that make it hit hard!

Cheers,

CHT

[Mike Edelson]

The only time that double kills seem to be an issue for us due to "hidden hews" is when the deceptive zwerchhau gets countered with a zwerchhau which is basically why the zwerch isn't an entry strike for me anymore- just a counter or a nachschlag.

This is exactly why I believe a Zwerchhau should NOT be deceptive. You want your opponent to know you're about to throw one and you should do everything you can to make that happen, short of letting him know exactly when you're going to do it.

The whole point of Zwerchhau, the way I see it, is that it all but forces a bad parry, which is why it is so often used for feints in the system. It will not do so if your opponent doesn't know you're about to use it.

If you want to be sneaky, there are much better strikes to use.

[Mike Edelson]

Yep Bill, you and Cory changed my mind on this. If you're too 'sneaky' with your Zwerch and conceal it too much, it's easy to get undercut. Fencing is often about drawing a desired response from your enemy - if he thinks you're striking an Oberhau and goes to defend it, and you strike a Zwerch instead, he'll likely go under your sword.

Ahem?

[Christian H. Tobler]

Ahem?

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean Mike...could you explain?

Cheers,

Christian