Longsword "Approaches"

[Jesse Eaton]

Tuomas,

I see what you mean now, but if you look at the moment of contact at 2:08, the contact that stops Szymon's blade is Carlos's sword and/or the impact of the thrust in his side. This is actually my prime example of how Szymons reach and speed was negated. His strike fell short because his strike was off line. His right/lead foot was well off line at the point of execution. That may have just been a mistake, but it looks like he was trying to redirect mid-strike.

"As for 5:54, I suppose "too close to injure" is extremely subjective." What?? No, really, it isn't. Whether an injury is sufficient to stop a strike is the question I think you are answering. But, "too close to injure" is not. Assuming he is wearing exactly what he is wearing, it isn't enough. Consider that you are gauging from a third person perspective but he is on the other end of the strike.

I'm not discounting your perspective. In fact I messaged him so we can get more input. We'll see what he says....and yes, I am interested in what other people are seeing too.

[Jesse Eaton]

Tuomas,

I think that the point you are making has some legitimacy. From a tournament view, the fight is more or less balanced toward Szymon. But a lot of the strikes, like the one at 2:08, was flat and the one at 4:43 was a skim off of the mask (I confirmed this). These would probably have counted as after blow in a tournament, but are not martially sound techniques. A lot of techniques that score points are bad martial technique. The subjective part is "what are you going for?"

As an aside...I have been part of many fencing groups over the years, currently I'm with Kron, but just prior I was with die Schlachtschule, a school that doesn't even do free play because it injects artifacts in to your fencing. Obviously I'm not in that camp anymore, but I agree with the sentiment. I try to avoid practicing poor technique and poor martial tactics when ever possible. It seems to me that tournaments cannot be done without poor technique and/or poor tactics unless there is a prior agreement from the participants going into it that they will not accept bad calls that are in their favor. And in cases where it is questionable, the round should start over. An in school tournament can be done this way, but when there is more on the line, ego screws things up and we can't do it that way. I think that tournaments should be contests that bring out a fighters 'A' game, picking a winner is/should only be secondary.....sorry that was a bit of a rant...

[Tuomas T]

I suppose at this point to keep describing what I see in the 2:07 - 2:09 exchange is pointless. The only explanation I can come up with is that Szymon's blade hit Carlos. You disagree. Fair enough. Even at 720p, YouTube video is hardly of a high enough fidelity to allow us to resolve this disagreement. By now I think half of the views on that clip must be from me...

Assuming he is wearing exactly what he is wearing, it isn't enough. Consider that you are gauging from a third person perspective but he is on the other end of the strike.

I'm assuming that "injure" refers to the theoretical wound a strike might have caused if the weapons were sharp, and particularly wounds that would have a significant effect on a combatants ability to continue the fight -- a highly subjective measure. If something else was meant, please correct me.

It seems Carlos is wearing a gambeson with some manner of shirt (plastron?) underneath. Depending on materials, this might prove very hard or near-impossible to cut through effectively (going by Mike Edelson's tests here), meaning this logic might lead to discounting almost every cut to the body and arms. Which is fine too, but different to what I have understood the basic judging standard to be: would such a strike with a sharp sword caused a significant injury, assuming clothing provided very limited protection? By this latter standard, for all that I can tell, the cut seems more than powerful enough. Though again someone with actual experience judging longsword bouts would know far better.

As for taking his word for it, people much smarter and more experienced than me have pointed out the various reasons why good, impartial judges are a far better alternative for figuring out what happens in a bout than the fencers themselves. That doesn't mean I think I am good, or impartial, or indeed a judge, or that I doubt his word (beyond my general skepticism) but it is true that things look different from within than from without.

To be sure, at this point I would not be hugely surprised to learn that I am seeing the whole thing completely wrong. I do not wish to be belligerent, I would simply love to learn why it is that we are seeing things so differently, and what is it that's actually happening in that video. Figuring this out would appear to be of a fairly high importance, seeing how many people find the "AEEA-style" so alien upon first seeing it -- if its practitioners really are as superior as you apparently see Carlos as being in this freeplay, it should have quite an impact on the way the rest of the HEMA world does longsword.

[Tuomas T]

But a lot of the strikes, like the one at 2:08, was flat and the one at 4:43 was a skim off of the mask (I confirmed this). These would probably have counted as after blow in a tournament, but are not martially sound techniques. A lot of techniques that score points are bad martial technique.

You may be right. I am definitely not experienced enough to make that call. I can only hope other people pick this up, so the whole matter won't remain a dialogue between you and one Finn who barely knows his Ochs from his Alber.

As regards wider views on tournaments, freeplay, etc... That makes me want to do a statistical study comparing HEMAists' views on who was dominant in that video, and see if there's a correlation between that and their views on full contact tournaments. From n=2, that definitely seems to be the case.

[keith cotter-reilly]

My inexperienced view called this for Carlos. Szymon didn't know how to deal with the trust heavy style used by Carlos and it showed. Carlos defence was spot on and allowed him to parry and attack in the same tempo more often than not.

From watching some of his bouts from tournaments it's easy to see that Szymon is a very cut heavy fighter and so are most of the people he competes against. This did hurt him here. I think after a few more rounds he would start figuring out what Carlos was doing and start working around it. Maybe even throwing more thrusts himself.

[Jesse Eaton]

Keith,

Yep!

Tuomas,

Carlos said he won't comment on the fight because it was a friendly bout, but the blade landing flat at 2:08, the skim off of his mask at 4:43 and the situation with the disarm were are confirmed by him, so I'm not just guessing here.

As to "a correlation between that and their views on full contact tournaments" I think that is very likely true.

[Dustin Reagan]

Depending on materials, this might prove very hard or near-impossible to cut through effectively (going by Mike Edelson's tests here), meaning this logic might lead to discounting almost every cut to the body and arms.

I actually think this is very telling. Has no one else really thought hard about the targets that the manuals (specifically von danzig & ringeck) *explicitly* recommend? For hauwen, it's: head/face/throat & hands. For thrusts it's face & breast/abdomen. For schnitt: arms (hands?), face/throat. i would write more about this, but my hand is currently broken...so...just think for yourself why certain targets of certain techniques are mentioned. maybe you will come to different conclusions than me; maybe not.

[Jesse Eaton]

Dustin,

Carlo didn't break your hand again did he???

I think the reasons for those strike/target combinations are pretty obvious, but I might be missing something or maybe it isn't obvious to others. Hauen take nerve clusters with hard objects as targets. The hands are great because the bones are anvil-ed between the blade and the hilt. Thrusts are more effective at soft tissue targets where internal organs can be disrupted. Slices are best at severing soft tissue, though the hande drukken is a bit of a special case because of the pressure, nerve clusters, and the anvil effect already mentioned. Am I missing something? Oh yah, the throat...everything is good against the throat, such a wonderful target.....

"this logic might lead to discounting almost every cut to the body and arms"...only on a really really slippery slope...maybe...

[Keith P. Myers]

I actually think this is very telling. Has no one else really thought hard about the targets that the manuals (specifically von danzig & ringeck) *explicitly* recommend? For hauwen, it's: head/face/throat & hands. For thrusts it's face & breast/abdomen. For schnitt: arms (hands?), face/throat. i would write more about this, but my hand is currently broken...so...just think for yourself why certain targets of certain techniques are mentioned. maybe you will come to different conclusions than me; maybe not.

What Dustin said! And not only von Danzig & Ringeck....Meyer, Mair, and Sutor say pretty much the same thing.

[ericbryanwiggins]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all of your opinions on this topic! I'm still swirling all of your comments around in my brain in the hopes that something will solidify for me.

Meanwhile, I've split off the "particular targets for particular attacks" subject into it's on topic. Please continue that conversation there as I think it's an interesting one and deserves attention all its own:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1935

Thanks!

Eric