Bouting with Dussack

[Keith P. Myers]

I've been doing some thinking since FA 2012. This ended up on another thread, but I thought it deserved its own thread so people would see it and could discuss.

I think the Purpleheart Armory Leather Dussack that most people have started using suck for reproducing what we see going on in the Fechtbucher. First, they are too short by about 4 inches. Second, they are not rigid enough to use many of the defenses that were historical. I was very frustrated in the Dussack tournament at FA. I doubled out in all three of my matches. I guess I can say no one really beat me, but then technically I died each time I fought! Part of it was because my timing and technique were likely off. I haven't had anyone to spar with for awhile now. But I think a bigger part was the weapon itself.

My strategy was to put the weapon out in front as a barrier (the typical "schnit" or "gerade versazaung") and use the standard absetzen to stop the opponent's blow, and then counter-strike around it with a sidestep. However, each time I put the weapon out and tried an Absetzen, the opponent's blow would just blast right through it and hit me as I was doing my counter-strike.....instant double kill. If you watch the people that were successful in the Dussack tournament, it was largely because they were good at playing the timing game....avoiding the opponent's strike and then counter-striking as he missed. It was more like a game of tag than what I picture from Meyer and Mair's Dussack descriptions. In hindsight, I could have adjusted things a bit to use some of the other parry methods and more deflective defenses. But if we are having to make major adjustments in what is historical technique and cannot use what was basic defensive technique in the Fechtbucher, then something is wrong with what we're doing. Frankly, and no offense is meant to the people involved in the tournament, but many of the tournament fighters wouldn't know the difference because right now they know so little of the actual historical dussack methods.

The obvious answer is to use a dussack that is longer and more rigid. Christian Darce had a new dussack prototype design for people to check out at FA. It was similar to his standard one, but had a solid plastic core and was longer. It fit the bill for being longer and more rigid. But it was heavier and hit harder than his original design. I think anything we do to try and simulate the historical dussack design is going to have some weight to it and is going to hit hard! So we either accept that, or look at something else. The one thing that is of the proper length and is rigid enough for historical technique but is light enough for good control....is a stick! But the historical dussack had a knuckle bow and a nagle to protect the hand. So we add a basket to our stick...and what do we have?....the classic singlestick! The singlestick has been used to simulate combat with everything from a cutlass to a broadsword to a saber. So why not a dussack? I'm liking this idea more and more. Imagine a bout where a dussack guy is facing a saber expert, both with singlesticks. Wouldn't that be cool!!??

Holding "dussack" tournaments with singlesticks would open it up to other people in HEMA and encourage them to attend the events. It would attract the guys interested in scottish broadsword and classical saber. This would also force the dussack guys to use better technique. I see it as a "win win" situation. Good singlesticks are available from Purpleheart Armory:

http://www.woodenswords.com/WMA/singlest.htm

What do you guys think?

[Ben Floyd]

I adopted schnit/straight parrying quite a bit in my fights. The biggest thing you have to do to use any parrying techniques with the current model is to parry near your hand. I think the reason parries don't work as well as they should right now is mainly due to lack of weight in the blade and how they turn in your grip. They did fix one of the other problems they used to have which was the knucklebow collapsing on your hand during a parry.

I'm looking forward to using the new ones quite a bit.

[Robert R.]

Single sticks are ridged, but they bounce, they're light, and thus they behave like a stick, and not a sword. I've done a lot of single stick fighting, and in all my experiences it turns more into a game of tag than with any other simulator. There is no perfect simulator, and so it comes down to what one is trying to achieve. I think maybe if technique is an issue, tournaments should be judged on who has the best technique, and not who hit who.

[Joey Nitti]

I like that idea Keith. Of course, this is coming from someone who hasn't really practiced dussack, sabre, etc, so everything I say must be judicially taken with many grains of salt.

I think a singlestick tournament would be great, and like you said, it would allow sabre, dussack, scottish basket-hilt, cane fighting, and maybe anything else that involves a single-handed weapon. We all saw Jake Norwood use his dussack knowledge to succeed in the sabre tourney at Swordfish, so I think it would work.

I think the reason why simulating the historical dussack design leads to something that is dangerous and hits hard is probably because the historical design was intended to be dangerous and hit hard

[Alex B]

The synthetic cutlasses would also work.
http://www.woodenswords.com/WMA/Synthetic_cutlass.htm

They're going to be a bit heavier than a single stick, and they've got the slight curve in the blade.

[keith cotter-reilly]

The synthetic cutlasses would also work.
http://www.woodenswords.com/WMA/Synthetic_cutlass.htm

They're going to be a bit heavier than a single stick, and they've got the slight curve in the blade.

I was thinking of looking into them as well. They are reasonable priced and seem the correct length dimensions at a 22" blade. That or the short sabre which has a 30" blade.

[Jeremy Loose]

Keith , as far as wood withs to stArt with I would go 2 or 3/4 thickness (1/2 or3/4 ) shape to a triangular blade cross section . This will leave you with a blade that has a 1/4-3/8" blade and roughly 1/2 -5/8" spine. They behave a bit more like the steel counterparts this way but still has a comfortable handle.

[Jeremy Loose]

I Have worked with groups that have used single stick for dussak in the past and enjoyed it. I've found adding a strip of hard leather to the blade surface dampens the bounce a bit and also helps to denote the blade edge . I've also had success with making trainers from rigid plastic composites as of late . Jason Taylor had me make him a pair of Messers this way based off the prototype dussaks made in this fashion . What overall length are you typically using ? As a trainer I've used lengths from 30-40" in the past am curious to see what seems to be the general consensus on the matter

[Jeremy Loose]

And I have the same opinion on the pha leather trainers . They make a lot techniques frustrating due to the floppy tip , grip shift and blade collapse . It can be maddening . But I think they were too concerned about thrust impact and not how realistic the blade behaved for the cut or bind/block/ parry. I also agree that they are a bit short by 6-8" the floppy tip doesnt help this effectively shorting you by 2-3" to start with . I think what people need to understand is that to simulate the blade properly there going to thump a little harder

[Jeremiah Smith]

Jason Taylor had me make him a pair of Messers this way based off the prototype dussaks made in this fashion

So your the one that made those Messers eh? better keep that on the DL or you will be busy, I really really liked them. they were amazing