Bouting with Dussack

[Jeremy Loose]

Take what you want from Paul Macdonalds research but the dussak/tessak/dussage has a clear martial lineage from Hungary/south eastern Poland and Bohemia/Moravia though Austria and the German Principalities and into the low countries and england .Take a trip to central europe and you can see numerous examples .The styrian examples being most prolific but also the bauerschwert variants as well .I think where a lot of people get confused is these crude examples that almost all date from the peasant wars in germany .As the langenmesser and falchion went out of fashion early in the sixteenth century the dussak filled that gap in the longstanding central european long knife tradition.That is not to say that it fully replaced the earlier weapons as we clearly have contemporary treatise on them running concurrent with those on dussack .But it had clearly replaced it in some regions in popularity .

[Ben Floyd]

Mostly I was throwing some stuff out there as food for thought, but I lean towards the dussack being a weapon. I'm not completely sold either way. That said, the one seemingly definative thrust to the face does not seem sporting with those weapons as pictured. The ends of the dussacks would definately pierce your skin in the thrust unless it's just leather, not wood. The other problem with them being wood/leather covered wood is some of the dussacks look *very* thin. Wood that thin wouldn't work against another weapon for long, and wood and leather together would be too thick. If it were just leather, it might work though. On the flip side, some of them are definately thick enough for both materials.

As far as 'cutting through', I agree. It could be just as you say. Like I said, food for thought.

[Steven H]

That said, the one seemingly definative thrust to the face does not seem sporting with those weapons as pictured.

Yeah, but they thought a bleeding head wound was sporting

So who's to tell?

[Keith P. Myers]

I haven't seen a lot of the minimalistic Dusack thingies in steel but I've seen cartloads of Steirische Dussäge (Styrian Dussack).

http://www.waffensammlung-beck.ch/waffe2.html
http://www.jugendclub-roitzsch.de/bwf/i ... #post28431
http://www.jugendclub-roitzsch.de/bwf/i ... boardID=54

Going.

I agree. Roger Norling has said that he has visited a collector that has a whole wall covered with similar weapons. All defined as "dussack."

[Keith P. Myers]

Hey Lee!

As for the metal 'dussacks' these seem to be the exception in history rather than the rule.

---Not necessarily. It depends on how you define the term and where you look.


Paul Macdonald presented his findings on the dussack as a linen threshing tool last year during a class we co-taught, I think its a well researched, logical theory that holds a lot of weight.

---I haven't heard his lecture, but I've read his article. I thought there was a logical flaw in his presentation in that original article. He seemed to be saying that the dussack came from the scutching knife. However, he himself pointed out that the "dussack-like" scutching knives have a clipped back edge and that this has absolutely no purpose for its use as a scutching knife. So this would indicate that the those scutching knives were derived from the wooden dussack....not that the dussack came from the scutching knife. And while not at all definitive...if you do an on-line search for "scutching knives" you will find far more of the "paddle" version than the "dussack" version.

[Keith P. Myers]

Hey Steve!

First, I think a singlestick tourney would be awesome! I would love if Longpoint did that. I hope it would attract a larger share of HEMA people. And I would have a blast fighting in that event. If not Longpoint then somewhere else.

---I'm with you! Maybe me and you will just have to have a tournament of two at Longpoint! But seriously, I think we should suggest this to Jake and Ben.


However, I don't find that the PH dussack prevent me from doing Meyer dussack technique.

---I'll admit that a lot of my dussack comes from Paulus Hector Mair. But it isn't that different than Meyer's.

In part, because Ben is right that you have to parry right by the hand.

---But that in itself is a problem. That puts you in a closer range than what is intended or pictured in the fechtbucher. And even that won't work if you have one of the "floppier" dussacks, because the grip will just twist in your hand.

But more because I see Meyer as focusing on cutting away attacks when using the dussack rather than an absetzen. His next most favorite defense is a more ceding action where contact is momentary before switching lines. The kind of rigid parry, where the PH do poorly, is a much less common technique in Meyer.

----It is very common in Paulus Hector Mair. And I'm not so sure I agree with your assessment of Meyer. But I'd have to go back and review some of his devices.

The PH dussack don't work well Lichtenauer zettel technique. But I think that the dussack weren't meant to. I get the feeling from reading Meyer that they were intended to be wooden weapons, not wooden weapon simulators. For Meyer, single-handed sword technique is in the rappier and longsword sections.

---FIrst, the dussack is directly related to Lekuchner's Messer. We know that because a lot of his terminology is preserved. We see techniques with names like "entrusthaw", "zwingerhaw", "weckerhaw", etc that are right out of Lekuchner. That would imply that they were used very similarly. Second, Meyer says in his rappier/sidesword section that anything done with the dussack could be done with the sidesword. So I see his Longsword as the basis for the system in general, his dussack as a basis for single-handed weapons, and his sidesword as an example of adaptations for a specific weapon. So I think to say that the dussack method wasn't meant to be used for sharp weapons is wrong.

I would actually like to see a tournament where the dussack was judged as if it were a wooden weapon, not a sharp. So that tippy cuts, slashes etc. were ignored. This might also change the way people fight to something more like what Meyer illustrates.

---Yes, I agree! But wouldn't you want to see those same tournaments fought with a weapon of the proper length and one in which you can use ALL of the intended techniques?

[Ben Floyd]

But more because I see Meyer as focusing on cutting away attacks when using the dussack rather than an absetzen. His next most favorite defense is a more ceding action where contact is momentary before switching lines. The kind of rigid parry, where the PH do poorly, is a much less common technique in Meyer.

----It is very common in Paulus Hector Mair. And I'm not so sure I agree with your assessment of Meyer. But I'd have to go back and review some of his devices.

I see his parries as intercepting then changing lines or cutting away. I can do both with the PHA, but cutting away does work better. If you don't 'intercept' near the hand, it will blow through. On the older ones, it can still hit since the grip can twist taking your edge, and thus strength, offline.

************

Finally, briefly note this precept how the cuts counter one another, as follows. First, the High Cut counters
all other cuts that are delivered at you, whether from below, diagonally, or across, provided you send it
against your opponent’s dusack upon the forte against his right hand. Conversely, the Wrath Cut or the
horizontal Middle Cut counters or takes the High Cut. Also note that two simultaneous cuts that are
delivered against one another with their steps always put off and parry one another. But he has the best with
his cut who comes with his weapon above the other’s in the cutting. Therefore whenever someone cuts at
you across from below, whether from the right or left, counter him with a High Cut. But if he cuts at
you from above, then take his High Cut away with a Horizontal Cut or diagonal Wrath Cut. This precept
should be well heeded in all combat, and particularly take heed here of the forte and foible in the Before
and After.

*****************

I have now explained at length the postures and cuts, as well as the openings at which the cuts are directed.
But it is not enough to have learnt how to deliver the cuts against your opponent well and long from you: it
is also necessary to be equally able to send away and parry these cuts when they are delivered at you by your opponent.
Therefore although I have written in the treatise on the sword concerning parrying in general,
yet I must discuss parrying somewhat more particularly here in the the dusack as with the other
chief elements of combat. It is therefore to be noted that there are two chief types of parrying, namely one
from above, the other from below. From the first, which comes from the High Cut, the posture arises
named the Slice or Straight Parrying.

The second parrying comes from the Low Cut, from which the Bow derives its origin.
These two parryings are each executed in two ways, firstly by catching or intercepting the stroke, secondly
by cutting away. Now catching is simply when you intercept and hold off your opponent’s strokes with
parrying, whether it be with the Bow from the Low Cut, or with Straight Parrying from the High Cut.
However, you shall not understand this parrying as some do it, namely that they merely hold out their
weapons and let them be struck upon; but if you want to catch and parry an opponent’s stroke, then you
shall send your parrying up from below with extended arm against his High Cut in the air; for the higher
you catch his cut in the air, the more you weaken it, and you can not only lay your countercut on your
opponent that much more usefully, but also execute it that much more safely.

[Mike Cartier]

You care all missing the obvious. They were pirate swords.

[Jeramy Gee]

Yeah, they were pirate swords. There's a guy around here who uses wooden dussacks as cutlass trainers and they work pretty well.

Regarding what we see in Meyer, I've always just assumed that what I was looking at was a martial sport easily transferable to hangers and their analogues (cuttoes, cutlasses), and probably fought with leather weapons. After all, concussions and broken bones would have done to them the same thing they do to us, which is make them unable to train at best, and kill them at worst. It seems to me that one would ideally not want to accompany the 'bleeding head' with a concussion, fractured skull, shattered eye socket, or broken jaw.

I like the idea of ignoring snipping hits and only scoring deep hits made with more blade than just the last inch or two behind the point. Hell, for scoring's sake weapons could have the scoring portion colored in to make it easier for judges to see. That would at least put the focus on 'killing blows' with an edged weapon.

[Mike Ruhala]

I call BS on your 'debunking' of this theory.

If you're serious I invite you to refute the evidence.

By comparison Mike, your as much of an authority on HEMA, (particularly dussack) as I am on car repair.

Oooh boy....

The styrian examples being most prolific but also the bauerschwert variants as well.

Thank you for that term!

You care all missing the obvious. They were pirate swords.

Well yeah but in the 16th century the term "cutlass" didn't necessarily indicate sea service. Interestingly enough it's root word means "knife." A bit like the messer, eh? The dusacks in Meyer that have compound clip points just scream "Pirates Of The Caribbean!"