Bouting with Dussack

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

Strange how blood is completely absent from the dussack section...

I wouldn't blindly trust these pictures to represent any actual training environment. There's plenty of blood in rapier texts too and yet people survived training...

Regards,

[Mike Ruhala]

Strange how blood is completely absent from the dussack section...

Yeah, I noticed that too. Everything's a bloody mess and then wham! peaceful and pleasant dusack... what gives?

I wouldn't blindly trust these pictures to represent any actual training environment. There's plenty of blood in rapier texts too and yet people survived training...

Regards,

I've seen a lot of ernstfechten depicted in fechtbuchs with heads being cut off with sharp swords and so on but this one clearly shows blood with training weapons. Mair has one similar image in his longsword section so I don't really know what to make of it.

[Roger N]

I look at these bloody portrayals of fighting the way I do with Talhoffer and Mair; they show effects of what happens if you do these actions "all the way", and to mark more clearly where you are actually hitting (often both the arm and head simultaneously), but not how they generally were performed in training or the fechtschulen. It is pretty reasonable to believe that men that relied on their eyes and fingers for a living also made sure they didn't take serious risks of loosing them unless there was a substantial monetary incentive to do so. The material on rulesets from fencing guilds that has thus far been put forward seem to indicate this as well.

Mair does indeed show this, not just a few times, but especially when cutting with the middle of the blade.

As for the treatise discussed I do get a feel that it is, if not related, then at least partly stemming from a close root. Few other sources show staff fencing holding the end of the staff like shown in Meyer and this treatise and in both there are plenty of single hand strikes and thrusts. Furthermore the triangle step and the specific body mechanics is similar. In the Halberd section of this treatise I think there is a stronger focus on gripping the halberd near the head though.

The longsword section is trickier, and surprisingly enough seems to use no terminology at all, apart from short/long edge.

Turning to the dussacken, the guards at first appear odd, but upon closer examination we see something resembling the Eber, Vacht, Zornhut, Steur and Mittelhut + a few other peculiar guards, like the "hit me in the balls"-guard.

Very significant for this treatise is the use of the left hand in the Dussack fencing.

Looking at this treatise I actually get a very strong sense of "action shots" rather than images with posing to illustrate specific techniques and principles. I also find it interesting that the targets are so clearly marked in this treatise.

[Bill Evans]

A friend and I have been working on leather dussacks. We are trying to model them after the Meyer pictures. I had a hard time making the knuckle guard round like you see in the Meyer artwork, but I think it pays off on making blocking more stable. Obviously does not feel like steel when you spar... but seems like a nice compromise between safety and reality. Have also been sparring leather dussack and leather buckler together, which feels very different from steel when working on the i33 material. This is our newest creation.
Bill

[Keith P. Myers]

Hey Bill!

Welcome to the forum! What have you used for the core of your design? How much do they weigh? Thanks!

[Mike Cartier]

Love doing Dussack and Buckler or Dussack and Dagger. So freakin fast its a lot of fun.

[Bill Evans]

Thank you for the welcome I appreciate the resource of this forum.

Funny I never weighed one. Been so busy with other factors I never thought of it. So I stepped on my home scale with one in my hand and again without. Not very scientific but they are weighing about 1 lb 3 oz or 1 lb 4 oz. We have tried pex and pvc cores, flexing them round so they go all the way around the handle and blade. I been considering some other choices but have not had time to try it yet.

Our training group has been putting some good miles on them and have not had any structural failures. Most of our changes have been balance or shape oriented. I have not tried working dagger and dussack together. Will add that to my list of things to do soon!

[Richard Marsden]

Purple Heart dussacks in action. Ours are a bit floppy and to block anything, the alignment is very critical. However, we don't need to armor up too much, and they are inexpensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRBRYXKJR5c

[Keith P. Myers]

Purple Heart dussacks in action. Ours are a bit floppy and to block anything, the alignment is very critical. However, we don't need to armor up too much, and they are inexpensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRBRYXKJR5c

Hey RIchard!

Thanks for the vids! Good stuff! Now consider this...... The Dussack was essentially an early version of the saber, with the wooden version essentially being an early version of the singlestick. So imagine trying to do some of the singlestick drilling and sparring that you have shown,...but with those leather Dussacks. Then you will have an idea of what I was talking about throughout this thread.

[Richard Marsden]

Indeedy!

Your comments on the short nature of the dussack and the floppyness are noted. When we use ours, parrying is difficult and it can become a game of tag. Some of the videos of people using dussack seem to be playing tag as well, since parrying is not as efficient as it should be.

Hanging out with Mike Cartier, we used his dussacks, and they were, for whatever reason, stiffer and in better shape and the system worked better.

I've not handled a longer dussack, so I can't say if they'll perform the same as single-stick. Our cousin group makes solid dussacks out of dense plastic, but they need to armor up a bit to use them and the hand is a bit of an issue. Also, in single-stick, saber and so on the off-hand isn't used, while in dussack it is. I assumed this was because the weapon was shorter. There are some very unique dussack guards as well. In dussack will you see the weapon held between the legs, or being held with both hands! I have yet to do that in single-stick!

While I think many weapon systems have universals, I try not equate them directly with one another. I do think it is safe to say, dussack and single-stick/saber have plenty in common.

As for simulators? We work with the tools at hand and balance out safety issues, just like everyone else.