unarmed combat

[nathan f]

hi all,
well i dont know too much about hema unarmed combat mostly just wrestling which i only know a bit of. basically i want to try and get in my head an all round system mainly grappling but strikes and so on too but what were there? most manuals i see rely on grappling arts but that will only work so often. so can anyone help?

[chris amendola]

Hey Nathan,

I hate to answer a question with a question, but, do you have a particular period or place of interest?

From Medieval sources you have options like Ringen (German) or Abrazzare (Italian), which are more "grapple"-y.
You can jump to the 19th Century and be looking at Scientific Boxing, and Catch Wrestling. There's the bare-knuckle period for boxing in between.
You even have late 19th Century developments like Bartitsu (cross-training in Japanese JiuJitsu, Western Boxing, and Walking Stick).

Basically there is so much out there, you question is kind of hard to answer.

All the Best,

-Chris Amendola

Houston School of Defense

[nathan f]

yes it is kind of why i had to throw this question out there. well really its the medieval arts i like the most. of course any Irish sources are useful to me but i have a decent bit of boxing stuff for this just none that goes with the medieval wrestling i do. does that help at all?
most of what you have mentioned im familiar with its just working inot what i do to try get a more complete system.

[Jason Taylor]

Someone who's more experienced can address this as well, but I've been exploring Ringen a lot more recently, so I'll offer my thoughts.

It seems that Ringkunst is essentially grapple-only, kind of like modern college wrestling. But Kampfringen is a mixture of the grappling of Ringkunst with a bunch of other elements, in particular "dirty tricks" (eye gouges, ear rips, throat strikes (halsfassen) finger breaks and tears, etc.) and a handful of fundamental strikes, including punches, palm strikes, elbows, knees, and kicks. If you do a good study of kampfringen, you get those basic techniques, but they're used as an adjunct to the grappling, kind of the way that atemi-waza works in Japanese jujitsu.

I don't know how many sources you'd need, but I'd personally start learning about Kampfringen add-ons that are present in the manuals as a starting point. Sorry if I can't be more specific--I'm only just starting out on it myself.

Jason

[Stewart Sackett]

Like Jason said, the medieval unarmed techniques can basically be divided into wrestling or wrestling +. I recommend working first on you stand-up wrestling (the clinch range), your throws & takedowns, your pins & escapes. Then look at how striking can be integrated into that game, mostly to aid in off-balancing opponents or escaping holds, the same for the gouging techniques (although you may not want to spar with those).

For the free standing striking there are a variety of hand blows that appear based in the mechanics of dagger strikes. I'd recommend getting good at your basic wrestling, then learning the dagger material & then working unarmed strikes from you dagger guards into your wrestling.

[nathan f]

well im currently working on ringecks wrestling stuff but it seems to me to lack much ground fighting and only has a small few strikes. i know they would all be combined into one in a proper sparring match but i would like to work on strikes separately to improve on them. so from dagger work im guessing you mean hammer strikes etc?
really right now im looking for more take downs.
disarms (which i will cover in dagger work)
a list of historically used strikes
and more sources on ground fighting.
so can you help?

[Keith P. Myers]

From our very own wonderfully useful HEMA Alliance webpage:

http://hemaalliance.com/?page_id=27

Go to the bottom of the page to "on-line texts."

[nathan f]

thanks keith i have had that for a while and it is great thanks for sharing it.
this is also quite handy just to show the various strikes and throws seen maybe not them all but a good start
http://hemaalliance.com/?page_id=804
thanks for the advice guys keep it coming.

[Stewart Sackett]

so from dagger work im guessing you mean hammer strikes etc?

I mean a little more than that actually. We see a variety of blows from slaps, palm heels & hammer strikes to punches with a closed fist, mostly within the range of motion for a straight cross, a hook, a haymaker or a lunge punch (no evidence of a jab). The stances from which blows are struck correspond to the basic dagger guards. The blows themselves are not described as fight ending, but as tools to close distance in order to grapple. Most, but not all, of the counters to strikes consist of grabs that close to grappling rather then blocks or deflections such as are seen in boxing. My point is that the stances, movements & strategies are based off those of the dagger plays. I’ve found it an important point as my own experience with unarmed striking consists of boxing & there are elements in the manuals that are difficult for me to reconcile with a boxers perspective.

The stance advocated in the Codex Wallerstein is to take an orthodox stance with the lead arm across the belly to protect against body shots & be in position to drop & defend the lead leg against a shot, the dominant hand rests high on the breast bone, ready to protect the head or to strike. If you put a dagger in that top hand you’d have the default dagger guard. In boxing this stance is called the “Philly Shell” & for it to work when fighting at close range, where blows are being exchanged in flurries, the boxer will turn to present a profile thus minimizing the target they present to their opponent & maximizing the area that their arms can cover. Turning in profile doesn’t work in wrestling because it presents the lead leg for attack & makes it difficult-to-impossible to sprawl. The conclusion I draw from this is that in kampfringen fighters threw blows from extreme long range, using distance & angle to defend themselves as much or more then they used the placement of their arms & that when they closed the distance they quickly took holds & transitioned to attached fighting in the clinch rather then engaging in a prolonged boxers in-fight.

[nathan f]

thats pretty interesting stuff. what dagger texts do you work off and any links? also do you have any pictures of these various strikes? and apart from knees and shin kicks was there any other prevalent kicks?
i would like to get a list so to speak of what strikes stances guards counters etc were used so i can go over them and work on a bag with them and then combine all of them into grappling and full sparring as you say and im sure mostly all medieval fights descended into grapples but you still need to have a range of strikes at your disposal.
any thoughts?