Phoenix Society -Saber/Single Stick video-

[Richard Marsden]

A place for the Phoenix Society's saber, single-stick and other similar systems.

We only work with these systems on the side, but do wish to share with the community what we are up to.

First up,
Polish saber. I have a personal interest in this one.

We are trying to get a hold of steel ones (our saga to do so is found under the equipment forum), in the meantime we have synthetic ones. The synthetics are not 'quite' boffers but close, so they are a temporary tool for now. They'll work great for the High School kids I teach as well. They are also cheap and require little protection. A good starter!

Some Online Resources (And people send me stuff. And if you have stuff, send me it!)
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/zablocki_SabreFencing.htm
http://brtdesignportfolio.com/88th/website/Fighting%20with%20the%20Saber.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbbkgKL4XmQ
We looked at an 1830 manual on Polish saber, then tried to utilize it.
Attempt 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-JkFE3lFO4
After attempt 1, we re-covered some material and went at it again.

When we get steel we'll need to figure out how to parry. Images seem to show edge, text from those who know more than I, say flat.

[Joey Nitti]

good to hear that those padded swords from histfenc are doing the job. If I ever order anything from them, I'm definitely throwing in a padded sword or two. The price is just irresistible!

as for parrying flat vs edge with sabre, I don't know much more than what I've read from Hutton, and he seems to use the edge pretty much all the time.

[Ben Floyd]

FLATOMAISTRONG!

I suspect you'll find edge parries.

[Olek F.]

FLATOMAISTRONG!o get a huge appl

I suspect you'll find edge parries.

This is based on 19th century military sabre manual introducing static edge to edge parries as primary defence method.
BTW deflecting parries and actions in single tempo are possible with heavy sabre but if anyone can work out a way to use them exclusively in a full speed free fencing with this weapon, then he's going to get a huge applause from Polish sabre fencing community. Edge to edge contact is pretty much unavoidable.

[Richard Marsden]

Thanks for the comments.

Our next task is more resources, so if you've not already shared with me, please do.

[Joey Nitti]

FLATOMAISTRONG!

FLATOMAIEDGE?

[Richard Marsden]

Reference Materials

We've been advised to pile together and use numerous resources to figure things out. Here are some.

Single Stick ('Old' and 'New')
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/31214/31214-h/31214-h.htm

Victorian Saber
http://www.ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_burtonnewsword_0200.htm (Richard Burton)
http://goatlocker.org/resources/cpo/history/cutlass.doc (1904 Navy Drill)
http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/B_S_M/Sword.html (Navy Cutlass Drill for children...)
http://books.google.fr/books?id=3moDAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Militiaman%E2%80%99s+Manual+and+Sword-Play+without+a+Master,+Rapier+and+Broad-Sword+Exercises&source=bl&ots=FpHfcqibMr&sig=Va0eXFZd2ivyoZb6PAVHbXpiWUc&hl=xx-pirate&ei=5pEBTIuKFdOS4gbt2oDMDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
(1860's Broadsword and Rapier... sorta. See for yourself)

Polish Saber (1830)
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/zablocki_SabreFencing.htm

Highland/Hungarian (Napoleonic Era)
http://blogs.princeton.edu/graphicarts/images/fensing%205.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/pdf/HungarianHighlandBroadsword.pdf (Angleo)

Dussack Guards (Meyer)
http://freifechter.com/images/Dusack-guards.jpg

More Resources
Cooke's Cavalry Tactics 1862
http://www.9thcavalry.com/index2.htm
This covers way more than saber excercise (that starts at page 51-52), it'll even teach you how to ride.

US Army 1907 Saber Manual
http://www.anesi.com/prsefs.htm

Patton Manual 1914
http://www.pattonhq.com/pdffiles/saberexercise.pdf

Infantry Saber
http://www.lazyjackmess.com/sword.htm
http://www.7thmichigan.us/manuals/sword.pdf
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/topics/so ... ercise.pdf

Manual of Instruction for the Volunteers and Militia of the Confederate States By William Gilham 1861 (Again, covers way more that sword use)
http://books.google.fr/books?id=TPwlU_S ... re&f=false

Manual of Instruction for the Volunteers and Militia of the United States By William Gilham 1861 (As above worded for USA)
http://books.google.com/booksid=WVs_dNx ... am&f=false

The trooper's manual or Tactics for light dragoons and mounted riflemen By James Lucius Davis 1861 (no ebook)
http://books.google.fr/books?id=_4kXjII ... re&f=false

British Saber
http://www.sawma.org.uk/files/Download/ ... Basics.pdf

USN Cutlass
http://www.scribd.com/doc/14747784/Sabr ... m-USN-1906

The Sword Exercise: Arranged for Military Instruction By Henry Constantine Wayne 1850 (West Point standard)
http://books.google.com/books?id=yiNEAA ... se&f=false

These Civil War Sutlers carry most American manuals, some are not in ebook/pdf that I can find prices are generally pretty good
http://www.blockaderunner.com/
http://www.fcsutler.com/

[Richard Marsden]

Piecing together guards for Polish saber. There is a lot of guesswork involved due to the solitary, 1830 source. Talking to Russ Mitchell, who pointed out the various Eastern European nations have stylistic differences as well. The system he teaches uses a more squared-up stance and false-edge cuts, Poles seem not to. So here we go.


High Guard, from the 1830 manual


Low Guard, from the 1830 manual


From Angelo's Highland/Hungarian, note the Medium Guard and similarities with the Low and High Guards of 1830.

(And then 6 parries are shown in the 1830 and how they inter-relate with a blade)

Note foot position and how the body is weighted. Note arm in relation to body.


From the film Potop 'The Deluge',- this low guard is used by others in Poland today. No idea if its historical or not, but some of the drills other groups are using start from this low, 'iron door'-like position. Weight shifts forward and back as cuts, feints, and parries are made. Trying to find an image of a historical equivalent.


Late-period, First Guard by Richard Burton. And he doesn't like it or other hanging guards. Here the point is aimed at the chest, but has trouble. Arm is exposed, point is dipping and so on. Burton doesn't like this guard for saber and said it probably arose from its use in single-stick, where it's more useful. Some groups use a very high 'prime' position, point fixed toward the opponent's face, almost like Italian rapier. Looking for earlier sources saying 'yes' or 'no' to that with the shorter, curved saber.



Note the guard 'Bogen' from Meyer dussack and its similarities to the guard described above, but without the troubles Burton noted. (Image from a great collection on the Meyer Frei Fechter site!)

[Richard Marsden]

Experimenting with off-line movement
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVqWt6nHrik

Experimenting with a dropped guard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gRiSOr8Y0c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G23Ux5Y-LT8

Sparring with the Polish Saber using the oddball synthetics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16dtIgPtuuQ

[Joey Nitti]

just commenting to remind myself to link you to the few sabre-like sources I've saved from various places online. A month or two ago I had a little burst of interest in sabre, so I hunted down a bunch of sources online. I'll find and post them tomorrow. I don't think I had any polish stuff though.