Bolognese Buckler Weirdness

Discussion of historical combat techniques and their application.

Bolognese Buckler Weirdness

Postby Myles Cupp » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:43 pm

So, I'm preparing a beginner's lesson on Bolognese fencing for Kron this Wednesday and I'm digging back through the sources (mostly Marozzo) to make an integrated session on how to study Bolognese fencing WITHOUT a training partner.
Naturally, this equates to spending a lot of time studying the guards, the footwork and how to throw cuts and the nomenclature because it's difficult to understand the original books without some grasp of the nomenclature.

Things have been going well but then I encountered some odd pictures I hadn't noticed before.

Consider coda lunga e stretta:
Image

Now look at porta di ferro stretta:
Image

Why is the buckler held up in front of the face like that? The text doesn't seem to give any indication as to why that would be. My understanding of generic buckler fencing is to keep it more out from the body than not. I'd like to have the formal definition of the guard look like the pictures but I can't see a martial reason to have the buckler so close to the body, even if it is directly shielding the face.

Suggestions?
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Re: Bolognese Buckler Weirdness

Postby Steven Reich » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:17 pm

Myles Cupp wrote:Why is the buckler held up in front of the face like that? The text doesn't seem to give any indication as to why that would be. My understanding of generic buckler fencing is to keep it more out from the body than not. I'd like to have the formal definition of the guard look like the pictures but I can't see a martial reason to have the buckler so close to the body, even if it is directly shielding the face.

It took me awhile to figure this out, so I understand why you're puzzled. while we don't have anything explicit in the text, I think that two things explain the withdrawn buckler-arm. First, I think that the arm is drawn a little more withdrawn than it should be. However, the second reason is key and it takes a little bit of explanation:

First, you have two plates that demonstrate guards which have a special relationship (actually, if the top plate was the left-foot-forward of that guard, Coda Lunga Alta, it would be even better to illustrate my point, but it doesn't matter that much). Anyway, Coda Lunga guards are ending positions of Riversi while Porta di Ferro guards (including the Cinghiara Porta di Ferro versions) are all ending positions of Mandritti.* Now consider what happens when you cut a Riverso: your hips and shoulders turn such that your body is square or even somewhat profiled behind your left side. Conversely, when you cut a Mandritto, your hips and shoulders turn so that your body is profiled behind your right side. You can see this in the two figures--take a close look at the hip and shoulder positions of each plate and compare them. It is important to understand that in the Bolognese system, the body position is sometimes more important that the sword position. In any case, the most important difference between Coda Lunga Stretta and Porta di Ferro Stretta is not the hand position, it is the body position--specifically, the turn of the body. Also, looking further at the plates, note how the right foot is turned out for Coda Lunga Stretta and then consider that it is the end of a Riverso which would tend to turn your right foot outward--passing forward with your right foot to cut a Riverso is sort of passing with the "wrong" foot (we use the term discordant stepping in our school). The converse to that your be passing forward with your left foot while cutting a Mandritto--i.e. and ending up in Cinghiara Porta di Ferro.

Anyway, since the Coda Lunga guards are formed with your body square or your left side forward, you can easily keep your buckler-arm extended. However, since the Porta di Ferro guards are formed with your body profiled with your right side forward, you must bend your buckler-arm somewhat or you'll pull your body out of profile.

Anyway, I have an article about the Porta di Ferro guards and the Coda Lunga guards: Forming and Understanding the Guards of Coda Lunga Stretta and Porta di Ferro Stretta which should help and give some more explanation.

In terms of cutting, I use a pedagogical device wherein I break down the preparation for a cut into six types which I describe here: A Simple Explanation of the Six Preparations of the Cut. Note that while these are never explicitly named in any of the texts, the are implicitly described in various techniques. As I said, this is a pedagogical device; another instructor could easily come up with his own methodology.

Finally, when practicing the cuts, it is important to remember that unless the cut is a Tramazzone, it should not be delivered just from the wrist. The turning of the hips and body is a very important piece of the mechanics--try to make the turn of your hips drive your cut.

*Note that information about which guards are the end position of which cuts (and thrusts) is given explicitly by Dall'Agocchie and also by Viggiani.

Hope that helps.

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Re: Bolognese Buckler Weirdness

Postby Myles Cupp » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:21 pm

Thank you! That is exceedingly helpful and actually helps to round out a bit more information on how to make sense of the guards as a whole (the turning of the body being more critical than the orientation of the sword arm).

At least now if someone asks me why the buckler is held so close like that, I have an answer. :)
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Re: Bolognese Buckler Weirdness

Postby Richard Cullinan » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:40 am

Steven Reich wrote:First, you have two plates that demonstrate guards which have a special relationship (actually, if the top plate was the left-foot-forward of that guard, Coda Lunga Alta, it would be even better to illustrate my point, but it doesn't matter that much). Anyway, Coda Lunga guards are ending positions of Riversi while Porta di Ferro guards (including the Cinghiara Porta di Ferro versions) are all ending positions of Mandritti.* Now consider what happens when you cut a Riverso: your hips and shoulders turn such that your body is square or even somewhat profiled behind your left side. Conversely, when you cut a Mandritto, your hips and shoulders turn so that your body is profiled behind your right side.


Not necessarily! ;)

The profiling behind the shoulder happens if you have an upright stance. However if you look closely at the images, you notice that the back leg and spine form a straight line!
Image

That forward lean of the torso releases the tension from muscles from the buttocks and spine, allowing you to easily extend both arms equally. It also has a major advantage in that it adds some forward impetus which really helps accelerate the passing steps, as well as giving you a base from which you can drive footwork using the volta stabile. Oh and the cherry on top is it dramatically improves the defence of the body because it withdraws the vita, as well as giving a couple of extra inches of reach. I've found that aligning the spine with the back leg has dramatically aided my ability to perform a lot of the sequences shown in the manuals.

But to answer the original question - I think the drawing for Porta di Ferro Stretta is just plain wrong when it comes to buckler position. Manciolino explicitly states the buckler arm should be well extended.
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Re: Bolognese Buckler Weirdness

Postby Steven Reich » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:13 am

Richard Cullinan wrote:
Steven Reich wrote:First, you have two plates that demonstrate guards which have a special relationship (actually, if the top plate was the left-foot-forward of that guard, Coda Lunga Alta, it would be even better to illustrate my point, but it doesn't matter that much). Anyway, Coda Lunga guards are ending positions of Riversi while Porta di Ferro guards (including the Cinghiara Porta di Ferro versions) are all ending positions of Mandritti.* Now consider what happens when you cut a Riverso: your hips and shoulders turn such that your body is square or even somewhat profiled behind your left side. Conversely, when you cut a Mandritto, your hips and shoulders turn so that your body is profiled behind your right side.


Not necessarily! ;)

Not sure I understand what you're disagreeing with...

Richard Cullinan wrote:The profiling behind the shoulder happens if you have an upright stance. However if you look closely at the images, you notice that the back leg and spine form a straight line!

I don't disagree with this at all. Marozzo's plates (in the 1536 edition, since some of the 1568 edition plates look to me like copies made by an artist who looked at the original plates but was not familiar with all of the underlying material) are pretty consistent with the lean (and the guards that don't have it have good reason not to).

Richard Cullinan wrote:But to answer the original question - I think the drawing for Porta di Ferro Stretta is just plain wrong when it comes to buckler position. Manciolino explicitly states the buckler arm should be well extended.

Why? It's drawn consistently with both Porta di Ferro Stretta and Cinghiara Porta di Ferro Stretta. I'm very hesitant to dismiss this illustration when there is such a simple explanation. Well-extended is a relative term and could easily mean, "Extended as far forward as you can while maintaining the proper body position for the guard." That said, the amount that the arm is withdrawn looks to be exaggerated a little from what is necessary to keep the body profile of the guard.

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Re: Bolognese Buckler Weirdness

Postby Gregory Mele » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:59 am

I have to agree with Steve that I think "well-extended" equates to "as extended as it naturally can be". The lean does help free the shoulders, but not entirely - the left shoulder must come back somewhat to accommodate a cut, particularly a half-cut. (One more reason that the riverso has more reach - the two arms aren't constraining the chest.)

OTOH, "somewhat" is nothing like the plate shows. I think it may be over-exaggeration of the notion, and may also be because the artist himself was trying to clearly render the sword position, without the buckler obscuring where it is. Pull it back a bit more, and it is easier to show the weapon cross-body. Obviously, that is speculation.
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Re: Bolognese Buckler Weirdness

Postby Keith P. Myers » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:30 am

So, I'm preparing a beginner's lesson on Bolognese fencing for Kron this Wednesday and I'm digging back through the sources (mostly Marozzo) to make an integrated session on how to study Bolognese fencing WITHOUT a training partner.


Hey Myles!

Just a suggestion....have you looked at dell' Agocchie as far as beginner's material? I would suggest working on his "passing through the guards" form as a good intro to Bolognese and a good form of solo training. One can add the Buckler to it easily enough if desired. This has worked out well for my group. Check it out on Steve's site:

http://www.nova-assalto.com/?page_id=1478
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Re: Bolognese Buckler Weirdness

Postby Myles Cupp » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:02 pm

Keith, that is an excellent suggestion! I am going to include copies of the PDF of that as part of my handouts for the class (which is a page showing the guards and the cutting chart showing all the directions of the cuts).

As a matter of fact, that is exactly the sort of drill I wanted to do in my class. Thank God I don't have to make one up now. :)
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Re: Bolognese Buckler Weirdness

Postby Steven Reich » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:09 pm

I'm in the process of putting one together for sword and buckler that uses the guards Marozzo pictures in his progression. It shouldn't take too long (a day or so) as it will be pretty simple. It's really just to get students stepping and striking and learning some of the guards.

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Re: Bolognese Buckler Weirdness

Postby Myles Cupp » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:32 pm

Steven Reich wrote:I'm in the process of putting one together for sword and buckler that uses the guards Marozzo pictures in his progression. It shouldn't take too long (a day or so) as it will be pretty simple. It's really just to get students stepping and striking and learning some of the guards.

Steve


That's actually what I more or less plan to do with the handout; put a buckler in people's hands and make adjustments as needed using Marozzo's illustrations. Probably not the most optimum way of doing it but for now I want people to get excited about studying Bolognese swordsmanship and appreciate that it's possible to get acquainted with the system through solo forms.
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