Getting Started in Bolognese Swordsmanship

[Steven Reich]

is there any similar pdfs that are about just the rapier in this style?
the above pdf is brilliant thanks for it. thanks for the help.

Not that I've done...maybe I should put one together sometime.

Steve

[nathan f]

that would be fantastic i just feel its better to learn the weapon on its own before adding in sidearms. keep me posted if you do. thanks again

[Steven Reich]

that would be fantastic i just feel its better to learn the weapon on its own before adding in sidearms. keep me posted if you do. thanks again

Oh, I thought you meant for the "rapier proper" (i.e. what Fabris and Capoferro used). The handout from the above link is for sword-alone or sword and companion weapon (actually, the handout is a little out of date, but I have more material coming). If you're looking for material specifically for Bolognese sword-alone, here are three articles that are written specifically for that weapon:
Dall’Agocchie’s Solo Form for Sword-alone
The Essential Actions of Giovanni dall’Agocchie
An Assalto for Sword-alone from Giovanni dall’Agocchie

[nathan f]

excellent. i kinda meant both but im new to this whole area so still getting used to the terms.

[Stewart Sackett]

Quick question, & maybe I'm blind & I just missed it:

Guardia d’Alicorno seems to serve much the same function as a right ochs in the liechtenauer tradition, primarily guarding the upper right opening while threatening a thrust. Is there a left side equivalent? It seems like it would be natural to fall back from a thrust in Guardia di Faccia into a left ochs position in order to defend against a cut to your upper left opening, but I don't think I saw that position described in any of the pdf links on this thread. Did I miss it? Is it present in the Bolognese tradition, but only used in specific circumstances & so not mentioned as a primary guard or is there another position that I'm ignoring & that serves the same function?

[Steven Reich]

Quick question, & maybe I'm blind & I just missed it:

Guardia d’Alicorno seems to serve much the same function as a right ochs in the liechtenauer tradition, primarily guarding the upper right opening while threatening a thrust. Is there a left side equivalent? It seems like it would be natural to fall back from a thrust in Guardia di Faccia into a left ochs position in order to defend against a cut to your upper left opening, but I don't think I saw that position described in any of the pdf links on this thread. Did I miss it? Is it present in the Bolognese tradition, but only used in specific circumstances & so not mentioned as a primary guard or is there another position that I'm ignoring & that serves the same function?

In general, Guardia d'Alicorno is an offensive guard that threatens with an implied thrust--it is very rarely used in the texts to parry (the only examples I can recall offhand are in Dall'Agocchie's work). Instead, the Bolognese are more likely to parry with Guardia di Testa (either Marozzo's point up version, or Dall'Agocchie's version with the point hanging across your body to your left) or with a strike directed to the opponent's sword (a Riverso, Ascending Riverso, or Ascending Falso). A counterattack against a cut to your right temple might be performed as a palm-down thrust in the guard which Dall'Agocchie calls Guardia di Entrare but the Anonimo Bolognese calls Coda Lunga Alta (i.e. a 'rapier seconda'), and which Manciolino and Marozzo don't give a name. Note that in making such a thrust, your hand might turned such that the thrust is rather like an Imbroccata.

On the other side, there really isn't an equivalent guard in which you would meet your opponent. That is, while Guardia d'Alicorno is a "stabile" guard, Guardia di Faccia, in which your hand is turned palm up to your inside (or even beyond, sort of like Left Ochs but with your arm extended), is more of a transitional position in which you are parrying your opponent's strike, making a thrust, or both (i.e. a counterattack).

In general, Dall'Agocchie's work is the only one of the four major texts (i.e. Manciolino, Marozzo, the Anonimo Bolognese, and Dall'Agocchie) who treats Guardia d'Alicorno as a primary guard. The other three works use that guard sparingly as a transitional position, such as for its implied use as the starting point of an Imbroccata.

Steve

[Stewart Sackett]

Very interesting. Thank you.

I'm still trying top stretch my KDF/BJJ brain around all this Italian, but I find the system quite interesting so far.

[Steven Reich]

Very interesting. Thank you.

I'm still trying top stretch my KDF/BJJ brain around all this Italian, but I find the system quite interesting so far.

Great! Let me know if you have any questions.

In general, when considering material for earnest swordplay, the Bolognese tend to favor the low guards (e.g. Porta di Ferro Largo, Porta di Ferro Stretta, Coda Lunga Largo, Coda Lunga Stretta, and the left-foot-forward versions of each of these). Dall'Agocchie adds Guardia d'Alicorno to that list.

Of course, things get a little more complicated--every time the Bolognese give a rule (such as Manciolino's rule not to depart from the low guards when using sharps or the rule in the Anonimo Bolognese not to initiate any action in sword-alone in which you start by moving your point out of presence) they manage to break it in a few of their techniques...

I don't want to overstate the differences between the Italian and German material. While there are differences, they aren't a matter of night and day...

Steve

[Stewart Sackett]

In general, when considering material for earnest swordplay, the Bolognese tend to favor the low guards (e.g. Porta di Ferro Largo, Porta di Ferro Stretta, Coda Lunga Largo, Coda Lunga Stretta, and the left-foot-forward versions of each of these).

Now that is interesting. In the German sword & buckler material I've seen it's common to lead with the left so that you are optimally covered by your buckler. Is the left foot lead advocated for the sword alone as well, or is the preference simply a reflection of the preference for fighting with both sword & buckler?

[Steven Reich]

Now that is interesting. In the German sword & buckler material I've seen it's common to lead with the left so that you are optimally covered by your buckler. Is the left foot lead advocated for the sword alone as well, or is the preference simply a reflection of the preference for fighting with both sword & buckler?

Yes, actually, the left foot lead is preferred for Sword and Buckler. Specifically, Coda Lunga Alta (i.e. Coda Lunga Stretta, left foot forward) is preferred for sword and off-hand weapon, allowing you to keep your off-hand weapon at arm's length to provide maximum defense.

Steve