The role of sportive grappling in HEMA

[Stewart Sackett]

Wrestling was a popular pastime in medieval Europe & there was a saying amongst the German fencing masters: “all fighting comes from wrestling”. It seems likely that those young men who trained as knights & soldiers were experienced wrestlers before they ever picked up a sword & that kampfringen (combat grappling) was an outgrowth of medieval sport rather than an independent art.

I believe it is important to understand the role that sportive grappling played as an athletic & strategic foundation to medieval combative arts, particularly as such an understanding relates to our interpretation of those portions of the old manuals that deal directly with grappling either unarmed or armed.

I’m starting this thread in the hopes that these ideas will be significantly examined/discussed & that Ringen will be given due focus both in the scholarship & in the athletic explorations of this organization.

[John Harmston]

Here are some related threads from the Pendant forum:

http://pendant.forumotion.net/kampfring ... ng-t87.htm

http://pendant.forumotion.net/kampfring ... ch-t86.htm

http://pendant.forumotion.net/kampfring ... ng-t94.htm

http://pendant.forumotion.net/kampfring ... n-t406.htm

[Jake Norwood]

If you were to introduce a competitive version of Ringen, how would you go about it? Clearly they wrestled for fun and for practice "back in the day." We know from places like Codex Wallerstein that "Killing Tricks" wouldn't have been allowed in such "Friendly wrestling."

Do you suggest something like modern freestyle wrestling with its focus on pins, or something more like Judo which focuses on throws and takedowns?

Jake

[Jason Taylor]

Stewart,

You pose a really intriguing question here. I would suspect that you're right, and that most knights and warriors of the time would have been pretty decent wrestlers by the time they started training "for reals." Sportive wrestling helps teach the most important fundamentals of kampfringen, the overall grappling "skill set," which makes it much easier to springboard into the "killing tricks." If you know how to move an opponent's body and how to maneuver in a grappling environment, adding in an eye gouge or groin stomp or nasty finger break or what have you when it's appropriate is an easy modification. Plus stripping out the various "hurty business" means you can practice all those important skills for hours on end in relative safety, building physical and mental toughness and fitness, as well. All good for later warfare training.

I personally sort of envision this as something most boys on the track to knighthood would experience as a continuum: first wrestling as play, then learning a bit more technique, solidifying that technique into a rock-solid sporting background, then likely beginning to add in the placement of those things that would be illegal in matches as they start to explore combative applications. I.e., beginning to demonstrate by controlled placement that they could have landed a gouge or groin grab or whatever it is without following through, and then finally training in the full breadth of Kampfringen for war. I don't know that this would be all a purposeful training method or if it would just happen organically as boys got older and more ready to handle it and their sportive skills got nailed down more.

I'm interested in the idea of a modern tournament system for sportive Ringen, as well. How do you think something like this would be handled? I know some will disagree with me, but I'm inclined to see a lot of value in arranging a ruleset that allows for this kind of training and testing against other wrestlers, so long as the objective is still training.

Jason

[Mike Cartier]

Sport Grappling definatly has an important place but i think the rules and focus should be variable so that it can be adjusted to various needs. There should be focus on throws and such like Judo but also ground fighting and weapon based grappling.
There should be sport aspects and non-sport aspects.

For example the nastier throws from Ringen can still be used in the sport but with proper control and a limit to the completion of the techniques for safety. There is not always a need to finish the throw for training or for sport (depending on the throw of course). This can give us more ability to do actual ringen so that the sport does not just become Judo or wrestling.

Also the role of submission wrestling should be considered. For example Ancient Greek Wrestling was almost exactly like modrn Jiujitsu not Greco-Roman wrestling or modern freestlye (although it has similarities to them also) greco-Roman has more in common with Scandinavian types of wrestling. The roles of both howerver are important IMHO.

[Stewart Sackett]

If you were to introduce a competitive version of Ringen, how would you go about it?

I started this tread very quickly, just to get my foot in the door as it were, & I’m going to respond to this quickly. This is a subject I like to rant about so I’m also intending to post a long-winded monologue either late tonight or sometime tomorrow.

Basic ideas for a competitive rule set (until the HEMA community has developed a standardized notion of grappling attire, this would all exclude grabbing the clothes):

Striking, gouging joint locking & choking techniques are prohibited. Start standing & with neutral grips at the elbows. If grips are broken for a prolonged period (i.e. if 2 people are standing & circling, but not touching each other) the spectators/ref calls stop & restarts the match from the neutral grips. If you throw your opponent & remain standing then you win. If you throw your opponent & follow them to the ground, landing in a secure & recognizable pin, then you win. If you throw your opponent & follow them to the ground, but land in a scramble, then nobody wins. See who can get the most takedowns within a set time period (say a 2,3,4, or 5 minute round, depending on the skill & cardio of your group).

I have a lot to say on this subject, but that’s a basic workable sparring rule set that we’ve used in Portland with some success.

[Stewart Sackett]

I liked how Jason Taylor put it: “stripping out the various "hurty business" means you can practice all those important skills for hours on end in relative safety, building physical and mental toughness and fitness, as well.” This is an important idea. I doubt knights trained by breaking each other’s arms & gouging out eyes as a regular part of sparring. It’s more likely that they sparred using a system of sport wrestling & then compliantly trained joint breaks & gouges. The order of those things is important. Learning how to wrestle will make learning to break bones & poke eyes fairly simple; the reverse is not the case. From an academic standpoint I’m invested in promoting an understanding of how sport was a basis for earnest combat & in particular how sport Ringen was a basis for kampfringen. As a martial artist my interest is in how the art can be most efficiently trained by modern practitioners so as to produce individuals whose fighting style is recognizably rooted in the historical art & who are capable combatants by both historical & modern standards.

I think 2 of the biggest influences on a fighting style are the rules that practitioners fight under & the methods by which they train. I’ve already posted a suggested sparring rule set. I’ll add that I agree with Mike Cartier that rules should be kept fluid, as it prevents people from getting mired in rules & keeps them instead focused on the underlying combative principles the contest is meant to illuminate. In addition to the basic sparring rules I already mentioned I think a sort of pseudo-kampfringen would be a good idea for students who have a strong grasp of the basic game. Such modified rules could include palm strikes, punches (with MMA gloves or restricted to the body), push kicks & knees to the body; while excluding some of the more damaging breaks & “secret tricks” & limiting the amount of time spent free standing or on the ground (so that the historical bias toward standing grappling would be maintained). I feel it’s also important, when engaged in sportive grappling, to acknowledge & explain how the material being trained relates to the larger idea of combat. Just as mixed martial artists train each component of their skills (boxing, wrestling, jiu-jitsu, etc.) with an eye to how they fit in the greater whole, it’s important that we remember (& emphasise for new people) how wrestling relates to fighting with a dagger or a sword, etc.

Now, to the issue of how to train: There are times in the fight books when things aren’t explained. Often this seems to be when things are assumed to be common knowledge. I think this is particularly the case with Ringen material, because the masters assumed they were building on a pre-existing sportive experience base. As a result the manuals are full of specific throws & combinations, as well as “secret tricks”, joint breaks & strikes that would not be a part of sport grappling. What’s missing is the details of how a person fights for posture & pressures an opponent to set up such techniques. We’re given vague phrases like: “go around for a while with him”. This is actually a problem with martial arts books of every era, authors only get so many pages & so they fill them with the exciting stuff rather than the more boring fundamental details.

My project for the last year or so has been compiling, organizing & implementing as series of drills from Greco-roman wrestling, freestyle wrestling, Judo & jiu-jitsu; with the intention of teaching the fundamentals of posture that can serve as a foundation for the specific techniques of virtually any grappling system (although my focus was on gearing this material to medieval wrestling). I wrote several pages of notes & musings on the subject. They can be read on the Pendant Forum/archive. Just prior to the New Year my study group completed a run through of my first draft of this training curriculum. It was a process that was meant to take 14 training sessions over the course of 7 weeks, with half of the sessions spent on stand-up grappling & the other half spent of tumbling/breakfalls & pins. It was a wonderful learning experience. There were areas where I streamlined & refined my presentation of ideas & where my ideas needed to be re-examined (I’d drastically underestimated the time needed to teach the forward shoulder roll). SHAMELESS SELF PROMOTION: as a result of this experience I’ve managed to compile a concise series of postural principles & drills to teach the fundamental abilities that serve as the foundation for specific techniques. I’m convinced that (at least the standing grappling portion) can be covered in a 4-6 hour seminar, although 6 months would be a reasonable amount of time to train the material in order for it to become ingrained. I hope to share this curriculum with the HEMA A director of curriculum, Stewart Feil, at the Northwest HEMA gathering on Memorial Day weekend…

I don’t think I was planning to write that last paragraph when I started this. Not sure what I was going to write. I’m quite tired actually, as it’s late here. I’m going to stop typing now.

[Jason Taylor]

I'm just going to post a quick reply because it's late for me, too, but I like the concept of multiple rule sets. A true Ringen tournament, it seems, would be best served with a variety of events, for example, the takedown rules you mentioned would be one "event," or if you're in training sessions, one drill, because it isolates a specific set of techniques for kampfringen that you would really want to be really, really good at. Another drill/event would be the pseudo-kampfringen idea, and another could event be wrestling with a back dagger (more a drill than anything else, I suppose).

Just a quick question on the ruleset you mentioned: are the chokes removed for safety reasons, or because they aren't really emphasized? And (as someone not nearly as versed as he'd like in Ringen), how many of these kinds of chokes were shown in the manuals?

I especially like your focus here on standing grappling. It never made sense to me to try to go to the ground, as a primary tactic at least, in what was effectively meant to be used as often as not as a weapon delivery system. Throw, then stab. Rolling around on your back seems a bit suicidal then--mind you, I mean if that's the tactical choice you're making, going for the ground game on purpose as your primary tactic. Not a bad idea to know how, I just don't want my reflexes conditioned to always shoot for someone's legs if there's a chance I'll be using this where the other guy has friends with swords and daggers.

More postage later. Must still work before I sleep....

Jason

[Keith P. Myers]

I like the idea of reviving Ringen competitions as well. But we would have to be careful. While its a good thing to already have a grappling background, it is very easy to allow that background to predominate in what you do and suddenly you find that your RIngen competitions start to look like any typical collegiate wrestling tournament. I think a good guide for what the "style" should look like and what should be allowed would be Fabian von Auerswald's Ringbuch. It is fairly comprehensive and was written latter in our era of interest so that it is clearly "Ringen" and not the more combative "Kampfringen." I have translated it, but there is a good translation by James Klock already online. I think Ben has it linked in at the Wiktaneur site.

Keith

Just checked on the new HEMA Alliance site and discovered that they have James Klock's translation linked in!

http://www.klocktower.org/ringen/auersw ... lation.pdf

[Jake Norwood]

Just checked on the new HEMA Alliance site and discovered that they have James Klock's translation linked in!

http://www.klocktower.org/ringen/auersw ... lation.pdf

That's because the Alliance is awesome.