The role of sportive grappling in HEMA

[David James Knight]

Which supports the assertion that Unterhalten uses the ground-and-pound approach to wrestling.

Definitely. Note that the first thing Mair says to do is control the bottom figure's right arm with your left hand? That controls his dominant arm and leaves yours free to throw hammer-fists to his stinking face.

Next question: submissions on the ground? I've seen dozens of different submissions performed standing up, but are they a component of HEMA ground game?

Here are a few from Codex Wallerstein (one of which is in Mair, too): http://paulushectormair.blogspot.com/20 ... stein.html

Mair also describes (but doesn't show) a front choke from mount in that shortstaff plate.

I wouldn't have a problem with the standing keylocks and such from CW being executed from a dominant position on the ground. I think that's a logical application of those techniques. I would, however, take issue with submissions from the bottom or from the guard we see in Mair. I'd argue that the bottom fighter's only goal should be to defend/pull guard until he can escape or sweep.

[Stewart Sackett]

The only submission from guard that I could see an argument for in the manuals is the omoplata, as it's depicted in the Codex Wallerstein as a pin & the technique has the advantage of doubling as a sweep that gets you off your back and back on top to finish the fight or regain your feet.

[David James Knight]

Stew: I think I agree, though it bears noting that lock is a bit different from an omoplata. Attacker uses his shin, not his thigh (as in omoplata), to trap and crank opponent's arm. Also, if you read the description and look carefully at the image, the attacker is standing on his opponent's bicep. Thanks, CW artist, for totally lacking any sense of anatomy/perspective...

I will also note that I can remember at least one instance where I started a submission standing and ended it on the ground in guard. Kevin Maurer and I were fencing with shortstaff. I disarmed him, he closed in to throw me (as Mair instructs), I sprawled and sunk in a standing guillotine (see Mair), he drove through, I kneed him for good measure, rolled backwards and finished the choke on the ground on the bottom. I think that sort of scenario is sufficiently distinct from fishing for subs from guard that it is permissible.

[Michael Chidester]

Which Wallerstein play is this? I don't recognize the term, but the only one I can find with a guy standing on someone's bicep is 72r.

[MichaelJPierce]

Top figure: "When both of you are on the ground, seize the inside of your opponent's right elbow with your left hand, push it up, apply your right hand to his left forearm, and spread his arms apart." The text also implies you should "press the weight of your chest into him" (see below).

Bottom figure: "If your opponent pins you in this way with his chest pressing into you, throw your right leg up over his back and your left foot up over his right leg, and in this way he will actually be trapped." The Latin for the italicized clause is "actu is interclusus est" and the root verb is "includere: to enclose, imprison."

Top figure: "To free yourself, knee him in the groin with your left leg so that he loses his strength and is forced to release you."

Given that Mair explicitly states that the bottom figure's legs are used to trap the top figure, I don't know how you could call this anything but a "guard," and a clear one at that!

The guard is a dominate position because it offers you control over the top opponenants hips. If he had him in the guard it would not be possible for him to be kneed in the groin. This is not the guard.

[Stewart Sackett]

I’d hesitate to call the guard a dominant position, but I will say that if it’s easy for the top guy to knee you in the groin you have some deficiencies in your guard game (that’s not to say it’s impossible). My BJJ coaches’ coach had a good explanation of the guard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBQHm-RwxDA&feature=related

I think that sport Jiu-jitsu players (me) tend to fall into the trap of playing sweep/submit & ignore the importance of standing up. It’s easy to see though that in MMA the focus shifts to standing & sweeping to get away from the top players ability to strike.

[MichaelJPierce]

It was trained as a dominate position in the US Army's ground fighting techniques, when I received it just a couple of years ago. I don't think it would be at all easy to gain the groin if the person remotely knows how to apply the guard.

Regardless, I believe there is a fundamental difference in what a guard does and the images shown before.

I definitely don't think those practicing their art anciently in Europe intended to fight from their backs. The images shown before look like they end in a stalemate. You have to use both arms to pin down your opponent, if he doesn't comply, knee him in the groin. To me this seems like the type of tactics law enforcement (or in prisoner taking) would use to subdue a person they intend to apprehend and not kill.

[David James Knight]

The guard is a dominate position because it offers you control over the top opponenants hips. If he had him in the guard it would not be possible for him to be kneed in the groin. This is not the guard.

Dude, with all due respect, I don't think you really know what you're talking about, because that's simply not correct.

In the grappling world, the term "guard" refers to about twenty different positions. You need to realize that the Army Combatives program is an ultra-light version of Gracie Jiu Jitsu (which is only one BJJ style, by the way) consisting of a few core concepts broken down to the 5th grade level so that they can be taught to Soldiers quickly (and not always correctly, in my experience). The only two guard positions that the Army teaches are "full guard" (which FM 25-150 calls "the guard") and "half guard."

The "full guard" you describe is just one type of "closed guard." There are about half a dozen other closed guards. See http://www.grapplearts.com/Glossary_BJJ ... _Guard.htm

Likewise, the Army's "half guard" is one of about eight different half guards. See http://www.grapplearts.com/Glossary_BJJ_Half_Guard.htm

And then there are the "open guards," that is, guards that don't require you to cross your legs. Mair's guard falls into this category. There are at least ten other open guards. See http://www.grapplearts.com/Glossary_BJJ_Open_Guard.html

All of these guards have different offensive and defensive applications. Some are easier to pass than others. Some control the opponent's hips; some control his torso; others control his legs. Some protect against knees, some don't. It doesn't matter. They're all "guards."

[Mike Cartier]

Its also possible to make sweet love to someone in your guard and vice versa

i think even in BJJ they consider guard a neutral position. Domnant position is on top, but the guard nullifies that somewhat, thats why you have to pass guard to get pointsi n BJJ sport.

As for subs on the gorund i think any sub that can be done standing can be done better in some fashion on the ground, my list of possible subs i have seen that i would think ok to do on the ground from Ringen.

Guilotine/front choke
Collar chokes
key locks
Any armbar combinations but the traditional BJJ arm bar which i think is reaching to use, but any armbar thats simply leveraging across the body somehow to put pressure on the joint is ok.
hammer lock
rear naked and side chokes
and i would definatly take 3-5 clean strikes to the head/neck/chest grounds for a submision because you just got knocked onto queer street.

[David James Knight]

Any armbar combinations but the traditional BJJ arm bar which i think is reaching to use, but any armbar thats simply leveraging across the body somehow to put pressure on the joint is ok.

I agree with your list and in particular this statement. The basic BJJ armbar doesn't appear in the manuals:



There are many other armbars, though. Here are some in Codex Wallerstein:

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/43.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/47.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/83.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/87.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/94.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/126.jpg