Meyer's messer

[Mike Ruhala]

That's a good point Mike and I've gone back and forth on this issue a few times.

My current belief is that the saber is the older weapon between the two and that cutlasses were dusacks or other war knives before they became cutlasses. Since the saber itself seems to have risen from war knives there is a close relationship and they have heavily influenced eachother... even pretended to be eachother from time to time. I believe that the saber technique of the last 200 years or so rose chiefly from the dusack which was still active 300 years ago and which in turn appears to be influenced by the longsword(Meyer-centric, I don't know about other masters). Cutlass technique draws heavily from saber technique and I'm sure the messer is closely related to the saber and cutlass but I haven't studied it in detail yet. The arts never died out, they simply changed over the centuries.

[Francesco Lanza]

The saber IS damn old. There is certainly some kind of parallel evolution and even blending at some point here, between single handed weapons with a bent blade like the messer and the culass. We also have to remember that the Germanic peoples for all their history have had as neighbours, enemies and allies both the Hungarian and the Polish peoples. As is the case with the French, there has always been a love/hate relationship between Slavs, Magyars and the Germans, and the sabre is the historical weapon of the former two, much as the smallsword came to be the iconic personal arm of the French. Just as French fighting and fashion bled all over Europe, so did Polish customs -and they started earlier. One of my most beloved ancient fencing treatises is Marcelli's Regole della Scherma, and he has a whole chapter devoted to the "Sciabla"... And we are speaking about Southern Italy. The Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth was fast becoming "itself", a great power, in Meyer's time. I really can't believe that the dusack is completely unrelated to the saber.

[Jake Norwood]

Zablocki's "Ciecia prawdziwa szabla" (Cuts with the true saber) lists several images of messers simply as "szabla niemiecka," or "German saber."

I agree that Dussack is very saber like, but this is more true of, say, the Glasgow fechtbuch than Meyer, which is almost straight-up Italian/Iberian sidesword (a la Marozzo, etc.).'

Jake

[Alex B]

I don't think the Glasgow fechtbuch has dussack in it though. It has a few unillustrated messer techniques, but no dussack.

[Jake Norwood]

I don't think the Glasgow fechtbuch has dussack in it though. It has a few unillustrated messer techniques, but no dussack.

Yes, correct. I meant, "I agree that Dussack is very saber like, but this is more true of, say, the Glasgow fechtbuch's messer techniques than Meyer's Dussack..."



Jake

[Alex B]

Oh okay, that makes a lot more sense. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Mike Ruhala]

I agree that Dussack is very saber like, but this is more true of, say, the Glasgow fechtbuch than Meyer, which is almost straight-up Italian/Iberian sidesword (a la Marozzo, etc.).'

Jake

I don't really know much about Italian/Iberian sidesword but that's an interesting comment. I study the Italian dueling saber and I see a lot of parallels between it and Meyer's dusack technique. Additionally one of the later fencing masters or other said something about believing the saber was descended from the rapier, I forget the details.

All that aside Meyer does specifically state in the first chapter on dusack that its art is derived from that of the longsword and I do see the strong similarities between longsword, dusack and saber.

[Jake Norwood]

Oh okay, that makes a lot more sense. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Don't be sorry. What I wrote wasn't very clear at all!

[Lee S]

This is an interesting topic, so I will reply.

First of all, I am currently of the opinion that Meyer's dusack is used to teach one handed cutting techniques for all types of weapons of the period. He often references the dusack section when discussing cutting with the rapier.

In our experience here, we train beginners on cutting with the dusack. In fact its almost exclusively used as a cutting weapon, until second rank. Through this I have noticed that my students quickly adapt to cutting with the rapier, and most importantly understand the basic universal concepts of throwing a cut, and how to effectively generate power.

In my personal experience, by training with the dusack I have found my cutting is more crisp right across the board, regardless of the weapon I am using.

Also we must ask the obvious question. "If messers were common place in this time period, why would meyer not include them in some fashion or form in his book when he includes all of the other common weapons?"

This question can also be asked of Mair, as he also has an extensive dusack section.

Especially when we look at the art of the time, Messers were everywhere. They were even depicted as a weapon of choice in religious scenes... ie when simon cuts off the ear of Malchus in defense of jesus.

http://www.lib-art.com/artgallery/3618- ... huber.html - This is just one of the many images I have found that show the messer in period art.

I believe the answer is obvious. The dusack, as the equivilant bouting weapon for the messer, eventually became the way to teach people how to fight with a messer.

My present interpretation of the meyer dusack/messer connection is: If one can apply cuts and thrusts while transitioning through meyers dusack guards while understanding how to skillfully apply concepts of measure and time, and understand how to effectively and efficiently generate power, then one is able to effectively fight with a messer.

[Mike Cartier]

yes very nicely put Lee