Striking in unarmed Medieval/renaissance MA

[Martin Wallgren]

I am wondering what take you guys have on the subject. Been discussing it with some fellow Kampfringen dudes in Sweden and we speculate alot but as always with HEMA we don´t know really.

So my question is what strikes did they use? what is refered to int the manuals?

Hammerstrikes? Boxingstrikes like straight punches and hooks and uppercuts? Open hand strikes with the palm? Karatechops?

This could seem trivial because the manuals focus on takedowns and throws but it is important to know to find the way into the grappling.

Was strikes and punches part in competitions and priceplys and simillar?

What´s your thoughts?

[Jay Vail]

Ah, another can-of-worms subject!

Martin, this topic has been exhaustively debated. Mainly it has generated so much controversy because the evidence for strikes in ringen is far less extensive than for throws and joint manipulations. For those of us who come from pugilistic cultures, the lack of striking in ringen seems hard to understand (much as the lack of ground fighting also seems hard to accept). But they were there, tho sparsely referenced. One of the Talhoffer's, 1442 I think, shows a punch to the head in unarmed dagger defense. The Codex W shows at least 10 defenses against a fist punch, showing that it was probably thought to be very likely that in common self defense situations a punch would be forthcoming. The Codex also shows palm heel strikes, and a front kick. One plate also appears to show a "karate chop" to the back of the neck in combination with an underhook to the arm. Numerous other sources show front kicks which have been variously interpreted as with the ball and the bottom of the foot. The Pisani Dossi appears to show a low side kick to the knee. Ringeck has been interpreted as having hammer fist stikes. Overall, however, the old manuals do not seem to put much emphasis on strikes.

Jeff Hull has written a long paper on this. http://www.thearma.org/essays/getting-punchy.html

[Sean Karp]

Dunno if this helps, but it sure is funny-

http://www.dropshots.com/abmichaels#date/2010-03-02/23:35:39

Guest password is: isabellae

Story of that to be found here: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=113061&highlight=academy

PS: Jay, when I have the money I will be buying your book, it looks awesome! I would have bought it already but 'Spada 2' edged it out by a hair & the shipping for a used copy of 'The Swordsmans Companion' from Ottawa is a little pricey. It is next on my 'Buy this book' list though, you can count on that.

[Jeffrey Hull]

JV summed it up quite well, and indeed, he pointed such things out to me back when I composed that essay, which alas, probably has a few mistakes (all my own fault); although its basic (and admittedly self-evident) premise is still correct, i.e. hand/foot-stirkes were not a primary part of the Ringen, but could be found in useful contexts, or at least were regarded as possible threats warranting defences.

That said: the two common kinds of hand-strikes that I interpret from depiction and description are basically hammer-fists (often) and open-palm (seldom). And there are some basic forward thrust kicks with heel of foot, never done to any target above the belly (gee whiz - sort of like in wing chun).

There are of course what Master Ringeck called his half-dozen plays of mort stossen (murder-strikes) - the existence of which are known to us, but which I think it be improper to speak of publicly.

I realise that some scholars like to interpet/integrate more punchiness into their Ringen, e.g. Lindholm in his second Ringeck book. (Plus he and another guy did a cool dedicated bare-knuckles boxing book.) I respect his viewpoint, even if I may differ at times.

Anyway, thank you MW for posting such an interesting subject.

[Mike Cartier]

Makes sense to me, when you have a big piece of steel in your hand your primary focus should be using that I guess. For more unarmed striking fighting i would go back to Ancient sources like Pankration, Greek Wrestling.The Ringen am Schwert work done by David Knight for example is a great addition to a longsword reportoire (you can find it on youtube).

[Stephen Zeringue]

Maybee striking was used alot by the lower classes and not so much by the nobility. I read in a book that some peasant style of wrestling allowed hitting and kicking any way they wanted.

[Martin Wallgren]

This is so good guys! I´m imensley grateful for your help. Any more comments is appriciated.

Maybee striking was used alot by the lower classes and not so much by the nobility. I read in a book that some peasant style of wrestling allowed hitting and kicking any way they wanted.

Interessting! Do you remember what book and references for it?

[Stephen Zeringue]

Maybee striking was used alot by the lower classes and not so much by the nobility. I read in a book that some peasant style of wrestling allowed hitting and kicking any way they wanted.

Interessting! Do you remember what book and references for it?

the book is called "Weapons & Fighting Techniques of the Medieval Warrior, 1000-1500 Ad" by Martin j Dougherty

it a history book, but i don't know how accurate.

[Martin Wallgren]

the book is called "Weapons & Fighting Techniques of the Medieval Warrior, 1000-1500 Ad" by Martin j Dougherty

it a history book, but i don't know how accurate.

Thanx alot!

[Sean Karp]

Maybee striking was used alot by the lower classes and not so much by the nobility. I read in a book that some peasant style of wrestling allowed hitting and kicking any way they wanted.

Interessting! Do you remember what book and references for it?

the book is called "Weapons & Fighting Techniques of the Medieval Warrior, 1000-1500 Ad" by Martin j Dougherty

it a history book, but i don't know how accurate.

Good book, I enjoyed it a lot. Nothing in real specifics but laid out well & very enjoyable.