False edge Zwerchau with crossed wrists

[KeithFarrell]

Normally the Zwerchau uses the false edge when swinging from a right Ochs to a left Ochs, going from crossed wrists to uncrossed wrists, and uses the true edge when swinging from a left Ochs to a right Ochs and thus going from uncrossed wrists to crossed wrists. However, we see quite a lot of illustrations of that true edge Zwerchau performed with the false edge, where the wrists cross in a slightly different fashion and the strike happens with the false edge. For example:



This image from the Glasgow fechtbuch (folio 2v) shows the figure on the right striking a Zwerchau to the side of the head, coming down on the head with crossed wrists and landing with the false edge.

Does anyone prefer to use this false edge Zwerchau instead of the true edge technique? Is there anything to be gained in terms of power, safety or reach?

Personally I find this technique to be a bit more clumsy to perform, it does not feel quite so smooth as I am transitioning from the one Ochs to the other if I am forcing the strike to lead with the false edge rather than the true edge. Also it doesn't feel as if it would have much power behind it, but that may well be down to lack of practice on my part.

So, does anyone have any information or opinions to shed on this technique?

[Peter S]

I'm afraid that looks like the true edge to me! When I'm striking a Zwerchau from left to right, I often curl my left hand around like that.

[Francesco Lanza]

Down here in Meyerland you are taught to hit with the false edge to the upper left bloessen as a matter of fact. Depending on what is the angle of attack, it can get pretty nasty (downward) or pretty difficult to hit well with (upward). To be word perfect, though, Meyer wouldn't call this a Zwerchau. He has an interesting way to describe both mittelhau and zwerch.

Whatever the case may be, wouldn't it simply make sense to train cutting with both edges on both sides?

[Francesco Lanza]

I'm afraid that looks like the true edge to me! When I'm striking a Zwerchau from left to right, I often curl my left hand around like that.

That could also be, in fact.

[KeithFarrell]

I'm afraid that looks like the true edge to me! When I'm striking a Zwerchau from left to right, I often curl my left hand around like that.

Fair enough, perhaps that particular image might look like a rising true edge Zwerchau, but it could also be a descending false edge Zwerchau. In any case, we see textual descriptions of the false edge descending version of the strike. For example, here is a description from Ringeck's gloss on the "sweeps":

Or if he falls powerfully with the sword on top of yours, go immedi-
ately with the pommel over his sword and remain there with the hands.
Then let the point go backwards to your left side; and strike him with
the short edge in the head.

The only way that can work is to end in the position shown in the image above, striking down with the false edge and finishing in Ochs, so pretty much a Zwerchau.

Down here in Meyerland you are taught to hit with the false edge to the upper left bloessen as a matter of fact. Depending on what is the angle of attack, it can get pretty nasty (downward) or pretty difficult to hit well with (upward). To be word perfect, though, Meyer wouldn't call this a Zwerchau. He has an interesting way to describe both mittelhau and zwerch.

I haven't really looked into Meyer a lot, I much prefer the earlier manuscripts. However, I am aware that he describes this kind of technique, and I thought he still used the term "zwerch" for the strike. How does he describe the difference between the Mittelhau and the Zwerchau?

Whatever the case may be, wouldn't it simply make sense to train cutting with both edges on both sides?

Yup! Very much so. However, the purpose of the question was simply to see if anyone else finds this type of strike to be useful or beneficial since I personally find it awkward, and because I very rarely see it used in any of the video clips I watch.

[Craig Shackleton]

Not to discredit your general point, but that image is specifically associated with the text for striking a zwerchau upwards to your opponent's right immediately after striking to his lower left opening. Also, I consider the Glasgow images to be unclear in terms of edge alignment, since the swords almost always appear to be flat on.

I currently do the zwerchau exclusively with the thumb-side flat down, meaning short edge to my opponent's left and long edge to the right. I do, however, sometimes do the schnappen with the thumb-side flat away from me, which is not an entirely dissimilar motion to what you describe. A lot of my students find it awkward, but I find it is usually faster and more direct. I could envision a circumstance where that might be so for a zwerchau or zwerchau-like action as well. Specifically, if I was at the bind with hands high and my opponent pushed hard on my tip, turning my sword so that my thumb-side flat was up, closing their left line and giving my sword the correct impetus for the zwerch.

This is one of those actions that as I think about trying to do it to a pell or something, it seems awkward, but much less so in the right circumstances.

OTOH, most of the time in that general type of position, I'm more likely to end up in a good place to shcnappen or change through, since to turn my edge that way they would need to apply downward pressure.

I'll play with it when I get a chance.

[Peter S]

I'm afraid that looks like the true edge to me! When I'm striking a Zwerchau from left to right, I often curl my left hand around like that.

Fair enough, perhaps that particular image might look like a rising true edge Zwerchau, but it could also be a descending false edge Zwerchau.

Actually, I thought it was a descending true edge Zwerchau - pretty much the standard L to R one.

In any case, we see textual descriptions of the false edge descending version of the strike. For example, here is a description from Ringeck's gloss on the "sweeps":

Or if he falls powerfully with the sword on top of yours, go immedi-
ately with the pommel over his sword and remain there with the hands.
Then let the point go backwards to your left side; and strike him with
the short edge in the head.

The only way that can work is to end in the position shown in the image above, striking down with the false edge and finishing in Ochs, so pretty much a Zwerchau.

It's not a Zwerchau in that play. It's called a schnappen in the text, and I see it as much closer to a Schielhau than a Zwerch. That particular play also comes from your opponent binding down hard on top of your unterhau rising from the left Nebenhut, and I interpret it as with hands uncrossed, hitting his head with a dowards cut not dissimilar in it's ending position to a R to L Schielhau, just coming from the slightly moulinet-like Schnappen rather than R Vom Tag.

Less saying "Never cut to his right from your left with the false edge" as "that's not how I zwerch". To use the False edge on that side for downward blows with crossed hands is generally too over contorted for me, and with uncrossed hands gets called something else.

[Michael Chidester]

I do the Zwerch with the short edge to both sides.

[Craig Shackleton]

I was just looking at the plays from the sweeps, and while I think it could be done/interpreted as a zwerchau depending on the exact position and amount of pressure, that a schnappen/schielhau is more appropriate there. However, even if it is a zwerchau, given the description it would be to the left of the opponent's head (their left), so the short edge would be standard here.

@Michael: do you _always_ use the short edge for the zwerch, or do you use either edge dependign on the circumstances? If the former, can you tell us why? I'm intrigued!

[Michael Chidester]

I've never seen a reference to a Zwerch with the long edge in the manuals I study, so I feel no need to use one. But I favor the diagonal Zwerch anyway, and diagonal cuts to ochs naturally employ the short edge on both sides. Long edge diagonal cuts want to follow through to pflug.