Both hands on longsword grip?

[carlo arellano]

We noticed that grip on pommel is nice for bind situations where you come into the bind from Zorn and wind over for a thrust. The main thing we've noticed in training is absolutism is death to art. Understand the basic body mechanics and experiment. These aren't rules they are tools.

[Cantel]

Hi Michael,

Sorry to come in to this discussion so late. The article you referred to (a transcription of the Harleian two hand sword verse) can now be found here:

http://aaoema.com/Two-Hand-Sword-Translation-SECURE.pdf

Best wishes,
Terry Brown
English Martial Arts

Michael, an off topic question for you since you have a lot of studies and references under your eyes: years ago I read that somebody dated one of the English fencing manuscript to the end of 14th century because of the letters and vocabulary used. Do you remember something about that?

That would be the so-called "Man yt Wol" (or man þt wol, "The Man That Would...") treatise, in the MS Harley 3542. It seems to date from the turn of the 15th century, but it's tough to narrow it down further than that. It is indeed roughly coeval with Fiore and the 3227a, though, you're right. Hard to tell which is oldest, actually, since only Fiore had the decency to give us a proper date (and only in one of the four extant texts).

Terry Brown has studied the text extensively and could tell you more. I'd link to the article he wrote on the subject, but it seems to have been removed from scribd at some point in the last year.

[Joey Nitti]

We noticed that grip on pommel is nice for bind situations where you come into the bind from Zorn and wind over for a thrust. The main thing we've noticed in training is absolutism is death to art. Understand the basic body mechanics and experiment. These aren't rules they are tools.

hmmm I think this makes sense. Even in the picture, the guy cutting has both hands on the hilt, while the guy winding has a hand on the pommel. It seems very practical to shift your grip depending on the situation, kind of like with regular vs thumb-grip (thumbing the blade). Just like both regular and thumbing are both used, just in different situations, maybe whether you hold the pommel or the hilt is the same idea. Not to mention how personal preference affects these kind of things

[Mike Edelson]

No quarrel meant with you sir, but I fail to realise why dodan is combatively applicable. Honestly, it just seems like an old Reinhardt-stunt to me.

Sorry I missed this before.

Dodan tests your grip to see if you can maintain correct grip as your sword passes though a solid target (like a human body). If you can't, your sword will turn and you will lose control. The sword will get stuck or worse, bend. Cutting air, foam or palstic bottles will not teach you this, and neither will regular tatami cutting. Of crouse this has little practical application today, except for those who like to train as though they may have to use the art in combat.

Medieval persons of the upper classes most likely learned this hunting, or perhaps by practicing on animal carcasses (which is another albeit messier and more expensive way of learning the same thing, provided you do not gut the animal first).

Plus may I point out that there is not a single reference to test/target-cutting in any Fechtbuch.

There are also no references to pell work in any German medieval fechtbuch I've read, though there is period art. There aren't references to a lot of things in any fechtbuch. Regardless, we know our ancestors had these skills, and however they developed them, if we want to come close to knowing the art as they did, we need the same skills. I am giving you a way that you can develop them today. There are other ways, I just don't know of any. If you can come up with one, I'll take it. Heck, it might be better, and cheaper.

hmmm I think this makes sense. Even in the picture, the guy cutting has both hands on the hilt, while the guy winding has a hand on the pommel. It seems very practical to shift your grip depending on the situation, kind of like with regular vs thumb-grip (thumbing the blade). Just like both regular and thumbing are both used, just in different situations, maybe whether you hold the pommel or the hilt is the same idea. Not to mention how personal preference affects these kind of things

I think that's the essence of it.

[Ben Floyd]

You'll notice as well in some plates that the front hand shifts as well. I think this is to increase the safety margin the cross gives during someone's blade on your cross. I know I move both hands around a lot nowadays depending on what I'm trying to do.

As far as the pommel goes, I think there's a very functional reason they became more rounded.

[Michael Chidester]

You'll notice as well in some plates that the front hand shifts as well. I think this is to increase the safety margin the cross gives during someone's blade on your cross. I know I move both hands around a lot nowadays depending on what I'm trying to do.

My working theory on this "Goliath grip" is that it serves to both move your fingers away from the blade of your opponent and to increase cutting power slightly, akin to the way you swing an ax.

[Ben Floyd]

One disadvantage to the having the forward hand back is it decreases your leverage in the bind. The further your hands are apart, the more leverage you have.

I haven't really thought about the axe-swing aspect of it. I suppose it could be true. No opinion currently. More testing needed.

[Michael Chidester]

One disadvantage to the having the forward hand back is it decreases your leverage in the bind. The further your hands are apart, the more leverage you have.

Yes, but the Goliath swords have extra-long hilts to mitigate this concern.

[Jeremiah Smith]

I am a big proponent of both Goliath style hilts, with extra long hafts and Michael's "Goliath grip". Obviously there are clear advantages to your fingers by moving your hand further from harm. I also think there are clear advantages to hand works with this grip as well. if you place your lead hand an inch or so from the cross it allows for better use of the all important "tomahawk" style of gripping your sword, allowing your thumb to come into play more often and allowing your fingers to put pressure as they will to help in winding situations. Also I believe that placing your lead hand here gives you more feeling as your fingers are directly on the secondary "node" (assuming of course you believe all the stuff about blade dynamics) of your sword. since this is a strong point of vibration, in my theory, it should help in fullen because you would get a better sense of the pressure being exerted by your opponent. Also this may actually be the proper leverage point anyway as it is a strong place from which you could apply force for fulcrum or leverage (of course this is a working theory so dont quote me on it). Now I am not an "expert" enough fencer to say that this is the best and only way, but it seems to me that any loss of leverage (although I haven't encountered any) is quickly superseded by added agility. and as for leverage aren't we "supposed" to be gaining leverage by Fullen anyhow?