Judging...

[Mike Ruhala]

I agree with the idea but it goes back even earlier than sport fencing as we know it, it's been the standard practice across at least two centuries and it's working on another. In addition to easier scoring white reflects heat better so it's cooler to train in, too. There are valid reasons for the tradition and I'm not at all surprised that many other martial arts also utilize white uniforms. I don't expect to change the whole community's point of view overnight but I do think it would be a good practice for those of us with formal training in one of the living branches of Western swordsmanship to adopt white uniforms as a standard.

[Alex B]

That being said, putting chalk on blades as in the Belgian rules would make judging easier with black clothes.

[Mike Ruhala]

Depending on the color of the chalk I would also agree with that. Belgian rules didn't have anything to do with black being as widely worn as it is though, it mostly happened because people think it looks neat and there's a lot of improvised gear available in black. Non-instructors wearing black isn't traditional and it isn't even historical, it's just something that sort of happened by accident. As we get more and more gear made for HEMA I think it would be a good idea to move away from that look for reasons of tradition, history and practicality. It does appear that many fencers in the 16th century wore brightly colored uniforms so there is some precedent for going in that direction but in the earlier manuals I mostly see more subdued colors.

[Ben Floyd]

That being said, putting chalk on blades as in the Belgian rules would make judging easier with black clothes.

While I don't like all white uniforms a lot, there is such a thing as colored chalk. That'd show up on white uniforms well enough.

[Jake Norwood]

Valid points on judging.

Black is historical for Belgian, and why that isn't why we started with black, it is a good reason to continue it.

I think white looks...well, I don't personally like it. Personal aesthetic.

Jake

[Mike Ruhala]

Black is historical for Belgian, and why that isn't why we started with black, it is a good reason to continue it.

Interesting. Do you have a link to a translation of the historical rule set? I've never actually seen it.

I think white looks...well, I don't personally like it. Personal aesthetic.

Different strokes. Even in my lineage I could wear a different color of pants, I went with white for practical reasons. There's some things that strike me as really odd though, like people who are clearly not masters wearing black uniforms. To me that's like hanging a giant flashing neon sign around your neck that says "HEY EVERYBODY! LOOK AT ME! I'M AN EXPERT!!!" and if you can't deliver the skills, well... we've all seen martial artists who make claims they can't back up and it's hard to take them seriously.

To put this in terms more people would probably be able to understand, it's the same exact thing as if somebody studied a book about karate, bought themselves a black belt and made everybody call them "sensei." I think you personally, Jake Norwood, are all good because you're at the very least equivalent to a coach. What I'm trying to convey is that there's a very large community of Western swordsmen from living traditions, how you dress and the colors you wear communicate a very loud message to them. If you view yourself as isolated from the surviving branches of Western swordsmanship then do as you will, otherwise you may want to give some consideration to how you present yourself and how it will be perceived by practitioners of related arts.

[ashultz]

To put this in terms more people would probably be able to understand, it's the same exact thing as if somebody studied a book about karate, bought themselves a black belt and made everybody call them "sensei." I think you personally, Jake Norwood, are all good because you're at the very least equivalent to a coach. What I'm trying to convey is that there's a very large community of Western swordsmen from living traditions, how you dress and the colors you wear communicate a very loud message to them. If you view yourself as isolated from the surviving branches of Western swordsmanship then do as you will, otherwise you may want to give some consideration to how you present yourself and how it will be perceived by practitioners of related arts.

Except it's not the same thing at all. It's like the fact that a junior in some schools of iaido might wear a black hakama with a black obi, but is not a blackbelt in any of the Japanese arts that use black belts to mean something. Hell, different iaido schools have different codes of dress and they manage not to look down at each other for it. And while there are arguably surviving branches of the historical western arts alive today, they're not the historical arts, they're related arts.

I also would say that anyone who would look at a related martial art and take a loud message from how they dress is either looking for a reason to disparage or doesn't have enough perspective to be open minded, so after I dress up for them they'd just complain about how the mechanics are different from their own art. Those people I don't need to make time for, they'll either get over it or not, no skin off my back either way.

But I understand that I'm on the extreme end of not caring about what anyone else thinks about what I do, I'm answerable to myself and the people I practice with and then I'm done.

[Mike Edelson]

Different strokes. Even in my lineage I could wear a different color of pants, I went with white for practical reasons. There's some things that strike me as really odd though, like people who are clearly not masters wearing black uniforms. To me that's like hanging a giant flashing neon sign around your neck that says "HEY EVERYBODY! LOOK AT ME! I'M AN EXPERT!!!" and if you can't deliver the skills, well... we've all seen martial artists who make claims they can't back up and it's hard to take them seriously.

To put this in terms more people would probably be able to understand, it's the same exact thing as if somebody studied a book about karate, bought themselves a black belt and made everybody call them "sensei." I think you personally, Jake Norwood, are all good because you're at the very least equivalent to a coach. What I'm trying to convey is that there's a very large community of Western swordsmen from living traditions, how you dress and the colors you wear communicate a very loud message to them. If you view yourself as isolated from the surviving branches of Western swordsmanship then do as you will, otherwise you may want to give some consideration to how you present yourself and how it will be perceived by practitioners of related arts.

I've heard this before, and I can't disagree more.

Your analogy of buying myself a karate black belt would be valid if I went to a classical fencing (or regular fencing if it applies) class with a black uniform because I bought a book and taught myself to fence. Outside of that context, black uniforms mean whatever you want them to mean. If someone shows up to our Toyama Ryu class with a black obi (belt), no one is going to think "oh that guy wants to look like an expert." A black obi means nothing in our dojo except that the wearer likes black and chose that color for his obi. Some people choose pimping gold with loud patterns. Just because there are other martial arts where a black belt has meaning doesn't mean a damned thing, because we are not practicing those martial arts. Likewise, black uniforms in HEMA only mean what a particular HEMA school wants them to mean.

In NYHFA, black uniforms used to mean that you were an instructor. It meant this only because I decided that it does, no other reason. Not too long ago I decided that differntiating by uniform color was juvenile, so now everyone gets black uniforms.

In the US military, a star on your shoulder board makes you an admiral. In the Russian army, it makes you a junior liuetenant. Uniforms only have meaning in context.

[Jake Norwood]

Mike,

The research regarding Belgian rules has been published online in a few places and, more recently, in print through Dijon's publications. It's Matt Galas's research, so I don't want to co-opt it any more than I inadvertently already have. A few searches online, here and--moreso--at SFI and Schola Gladitoria should yield what you're looking for. If you want to see the originals, it's in Franco-Belgian on Google Books somewhere, I think. I don't know where. I don't speak Franconian.

Concerning colors, I agree with Michael. The brands of HEMA that are running around in black uniforms are not the same brands that do classical fencing (at least not in my experience). There are EMA schools that give black belts to beginners and white to experts. Different strokes and all that.

I respect that in a classical or modern fencing school the color of the jacket has special meaning. It does not in any pre-18th-century fencing school that I am aware of. And it definitely doesn't in any of the ones that I personally associate with and respect. I'm not saying it shouldn't in yours, but I am saying that it doesn't in mine.

All that said, your remarks on the color affecting judging are definitely worth looking into.

Jake

[Dustin Reagan]

If you view yourself as isolated from the surviving branches of Western swordsmanship then do as you will, otherwise you may want to give some consideration to how you present yourself and how it will be perceived by practitioners of related arts.

While I personally don't have a strong opinion one way or the other about uniform color, other then for the very pragmatic reason (ease of judging) that I listed above, I think that Mike already addressed the concerns that Andy & Michael raised with the clause I highlighted above. I'll paraphrase it: If you view yourself as isolated, great, exactly. do whatever you please. If you want to share with, or be associated in any way with the other surviving branches of Western swordsmanship, then at least give it some consideration.

I personally feel Mike is making a bigger deal out of it than is necessary (hell, i really don't think many of the serious sport fencers I know would bat an eye at it), but his core proposition is valid.