Judging...

[Ben Floyd]

White on white is harder to see than white on black.

Even with the colored tape on the blade? I guess I'd have to see it in person to agree.

Also, it's not just an issue of the color of the blade vs the color of the uniform. It's an issue of subtle shadings that give clues as to body positions and movements. For instance, the position of a fencers arms against his own body can tell you a lot about where in space his weapon is. With a black uniform, it's much harder to get a good sense of where a fencer's arms are in relation to each other and his torso (since your brain has almost no shadow information to go on). This is very simple to see, even in a video.

You could be right, though, that the lack of contrast between white blade & white uniform (though you'll still have shadow information from the blade onto the uniform) outweighs the other perceptual benefit.

The colored tape is never (that I have seen) all the way down the blade to the tip. Sometimes, it's only right next to the hilt. I could be wrong, but I think the shadow information isn't as important since the weapons are bigger and easier to pick up visually.

[Dustin Reagan]

In regards to the safety issue, Dustin, I can personally assure you that if you are stuck with a longsword, a rapier, or something else with a wide blade (even a knife).

You will know instantly, as will everyone else around you, regardless if you are wearing brown, red or black.

That doesn't cover nearly all the cases, and besides is not necessarily even true. For instance, during a Sport Fencing competition, my opponents blade managed to make it's way violently up my sleeve, lacerating my arm. I felt zero pain. Moments later, the referee stopped the bout, because of the blood seeping through my jacket's arm.

I am much more interested in the material of the fencing jackets we are using, its long term durability, and puncture resistance, mobility and its ability to lessen impacts.

Which has nothing to do with color of said jacket, so I fully agree.

For example, if there is a tournament where someone dictates that you can not wear black, I do not tend to fence in said tournaments. The person running the tournament makes the rules, if I do not like the rules, I do not enter. It is that simple.

Many other people feel the same way.

Fine, I'm not sure what this has to do with jacket color. It seems that you are discussing individual choice.

As does the silver color of polished steel.

This seems intuitive, but it's not the case. This is why i think it may have to do more with shadow/shading information than with contrast between blade/jacket. I don't think i'll be able to convince you otherwise, that's why I suggested that you try it yourself. *shrug*, it's something that was figured out many years ago, It's a shame we have to figure it out again...

I still don't see anything in your argument addressing a practical/pragmatic reason for wearing a black uniform.

[Jake Norwood]

The primary reason for black to this point in the community, quite frankly, is availability. Until, oh, this month, there hasn't been a robust/padded jacket available in white to the majority of fighters.

Same reason the south wore Grey. It's what they had. Let's not try to import too much meaning. Wearing black for a tournament advantage is, quite frankly, ridiculous and not something that I would surmise has occurred to any tournament fencer that I can think of.

Jake

[Dustin Reagan]

The primary reason for black to this point in the community, quite frankly, is availability. Until, oh, this month, there hasn't been a robust/padded jacket available in white to the majority of fighters.

Same reason the south wore Grey. It's what they had. Let's not try to import too much meaning. Wearing black for a tournament advantage is, quite frankly, ridiculous and not something that I would surmise has occurred to any tournament fencer that I can think of.

Jake

Thanks for being forthright. This is all I was asking about, really.

I really don't think it is a big deal, but I think you might be surprised at the difference it makes, visually, when judging. I could be wrong.

Wearing black for a tournament advantage is, quite frankly, ridiculous and not something that I would surmise has occurred to any tournament fencer that I can think of.

It may have occurred to you if you were in, or had close associations with, a tradition that refereed fencers wearing white.

For the record, I will wear black for tournament play. Do I think wearing white would put me at a huge disadvantage? Definitely not, but every point matters, if you are playing to win.

[Mike Ruhala]

There are factors at play other than pragmatism. I don't know how long you've been fencing but back in the day there was a huge flame war between the leadership of the(at the time) two prominent branches and the leadership of the emerging manual based historical fencing community. It was counter productive and nonsensical at the time, ultimately it set back the development of the entire fencing community by decades. I'm sure what others have said about different ryu is true but Western swordsmanship has never been structured that way. A high level Western swordsman typically knows a variety of weapons and usually a few different styles too. Look at what is written about how masters like Liechtenauer and Fiore learned their trade, it's not much different today. While I agree 100% with Lee about there being no living masters of the historical arts its also true that weapons like the longsword and rapier were studied in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. Historical fencing isn't a new idea, it's hundreds of years old. Likewise, less than 100 years ago, there was no significant difference between sport and classical fencing. If you developed your practice in isolation then naturally you'll tend to view yourself as isolated. I've been down that road and I know it won't take me where I want to go so I'm not an isolationist. I do think it's important to know what you want to get out of fencing and pursue it.

[Dustin Reagan]

Ugh, I'm afraid I'm coming off sounding like I think i have some secret/special knowledge because of my background with sport fencing. Sorry if I am coming off this way, it's not at all what I think.

I *do* think that since sport fencing has an established set of techniques (for judging), and extensive practice at judging bouts between two fencers, we should look into how they do things without letting what we don't like about sport fencing color things too much.

[Ben Floyd]

...without letting what we don't like about sport fencing color things too much.

I see what you did there...

[Dustin Reagan]

I see what you did there...

bahahaha!

[Kevin Murakoshi]

First off, I am probably the closest person here to the obtaining the "right" to wear the black jacket as a fencing Master. I'm certified as a Provost at Arms from the SJSU Fencing Masters program, and am planning on taking my Maestro's exam in two years. I was the only person at WMAW who wore fencing whites for all four days. If anyone should be offended by other people wearing black, it by all rights should be me. That said, I find that I just can't get worked up about the issue.

Within the Classical Fencing world, it is understood that the black jacket is the prerogative of a Fencing Master. In the American Sport fencing world, black jackets are used by almost every coach regardless of certification level (this mainly due to the fact that coach's equipment is almost exclusively available in black). In some European countries, France in particular, certification as a fencing master is required to be a fencing coach, this means that all fencing masters get to wear black. As a rule, however, in the sport fencing world the black uniform -> fencing master rule is pretty much dead, and only preserved in the rule that no competition uniform may be black.

I personally do not wear a black uniform. At HEMA/WMA events I wear fencing whites for the entire course of the event. I do, however, own a black leather coach's jacket for use when giving lessons. That said, it's a personal choice as far as I am concerned. As a classical fencer, I would prefer that everyone wear white jackets, especially in the rapier/singlestick/broadsword/heavy saber (post 16th century) side of things, but given the many things that concern me about HEMA/WMA, this is probably at the bottom of my list.

That said, it is my experience that when judging point weapons (rapier, foil, epee, etc) and thinner cut weapons (modern saber, heavy Victorian saber, and singlestick) white jackets are considerably easier to detect touches on. I don't have a whole lot of experience judging longsword, so I won't offer an opinion there. I also think that, as a coach, it is easier to see student movement in white uniforms because the contrast lets you see a bit more of what's going on.

That said, black looks cool, and I coaching equipment (which is heavily used for HEMA kit) is pretty much only available in black. So, it's up to the practitioner.



Now for some history:

This rule is of relatively recent vintage. Fencing uniforms have gone through a number of changes through the 19th and 20th centuries, resulting in both black and white uniforms being used for competition. In the late 19th century, black uniforms and chalked tips were common in foil. The 1891 AFLA rules included "17. Each competitor must wear a dark fencing jacket, so that white chalk marks can be easily seen". There were also half black, half white uniforms, used to determine target area.

http://www.museumofamericanfencing.com/site/index.php/fencing-history/early-afla-usfa/258-oconnor-tatham-nadal-van-zo-post-1891
shows both of these types. The description for that image includes reference to both "black cloth" and "purple velvet" uniforms being worn at this event.

Some 1893 comments on the black uniforms by a French fencing master:
http://texasfencing.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Misc&thread=516&page=1

In any event, these types of uniforms were phased out by the second Olympics, giving rise to the white uniforms we know today. I suspect that this has to do with the difficulty in judging using the black uniforms, from personal experience it is considerably more difficult to detect touches with point weapons with black uniforms (even with the colored tape). Taken with the comments above, I suspect that this was a big part of the switch. (That, or as in all things fencing, the French liked white and got their way)

I do not know when the "black for fencing master" rule was codified, and it's entirely possible that it predated the switch to black uniforms. (Previous to the 1890s, uniforms were most often white. All of the 19th century fencing manuals that I can think of show white uniforms, for example. ) That said, the classial white->fencer, black->master is not as hard and fast a rule as we might think.

[Mike Ruhala]

AFLA history is certainly relevant to any USFA fencer but it's worth noting that the organization was also founded in 1891(just a few months before that first rule book was published, actually) by people who were breaking away from a pre-existing organization. Also, "dark" doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as "black" and the 4 page rule book doesn't mention whether or not black uniforms were customarily worn by their instructors. I do think it's interesting that chalk is given as the reason for wearing a dark uniform as I've heard other versions of the story wherein the chalk was blue and white uniforms were preferred. I've also heard of non-permanent dye on the tips of weapons as being the reason for white uniforms. In any case it's clear that white was widely worn prior to the 1890's and I suspect the fact that they didn't have air conditioning back then had a lot to do with it, as did many other practical considerations.

I think several people have misinterpreted what I said in response to Jake... he doesn't fancy white uniforms and I think black looks out of place on non-instructors. Different strokes. Nobody's mad at anybody and nobody's trying to force anybody to wear anything they don't want to. Do I think white's a good color to wear? Yeah, definitely. Do you have to wear it? Nope.