Flourish tips

[Kevin Hemmingsen]

This is an offshoot from the Dutch dagger thread.

I have been working on my flourish techniques and wanted to know if anyone had any tips. I have not had any in person instruction on flourishing thus far so I've been basically working from the videos of others. For the most part I've been working on getting a better feel for the blade and increasing my overall control. If anyone has anything at all to say about flourishing it would be much appreciated.

Cheers,

Kevin Hemmingsen

[Jake Norwood]

Kevin,

The tips that Lopes gave me were very specific both to my own mechanics and to the details of that particular flouish/drill, so I don't know how much they'd help.

However, there are some generic, fundamental-type tips (some of which apply to Lopes's help to me) which I probably can contribute.

- Keep your eyes on the target. In fact, it's easier to do this if you actually have a target or point of reference instead of staring out blankly "into a field" or, worse yet, at the floor. Use the target to make sure your edge alignment and angle are correct and that you're hitting the same (intended) target every time.

- Pay careful attention to getting it "right" at a slow, "Stop-stop-stop" speed. Get the correct mechanics fully ingrained before picking up speed or eliminating between-step stops. Slowly build up speed and fluidity so that you never get sloppy. Part of why Lopes's flourishes looked so good is because they were clearly dilligently practiced with an eye to getting it right, not just getting it fast.

- Pick or create a flourish that actually teaches or reinforces something. Matt Galas's drills/flourishes are great this way. So are the techniques in the 12 Rules of Dom Figereydo (or however that's spelled…its on the WMAC forum...), the stuff in the English manuscripts, Meyer's drills, Dobringer's flourish, and a thousand others. If you're inventing your own, try to pick a "theme" for it…transitioning from cuts to thrusts, cutting to the four openings, cutting all to one side, alternating edges, all long edge, all short edge, with footwork, without footwork, all in a single plane, etc. etc.

- Get a spotter. Having someone (like Lopes in my case) to keep you honest is a really helpful. Especially once you start getting quicker and, possibly, sloppier.

- Repetition repetition repetition. One of Dom F.'s Montante flourishes that Matt taught last weekend came with the advice to do only this every day "for eight days." And it's a really simple set of movements…

Hope that helps.

Jake

[Kevin Hemmingsen]

Thanks for the tips Jake, that is exactly the type of stuff I was looking for.

I am going to work on all these things when I get home tonight. I do use the Meyer drills so I will probably start there and focus on the key things you mentioned.

On a side note I just got a Liechtenauer and all I can think about is swinging that damn thing around.

Kevin

[Mark W]

On a side note I just got a Liechtenauer and all I can think about is swinging that damn thing around.

They have that effect.

WIth regards to flourishes, also it helps to think of each sequence of two to three moves as dealing with one opponent. Then change your facing, and engage a new opponent. Not only is is more realistic, it's easier to remember!

Best regards,

-Mark

[Jeffrey Hull]

All those are good suggestions.

Would only suggest that a flourish may contain all the major moves of a given method. That avoids needless repetition, although some is fine (i.e. for sake of doing various moves from both left & right); and would correspond with how a flourish as an arrangement of moves may show ones range of moves.

Jake: Please inform (foliation & term) of what you called "Doebringer flourish".
Is it explicitly in the Cod.Hs.3227a; or is it a helpful thing you have devised from a contiguous set of moves in there?
I looked through Hammaborg-Hagedorn Transkription and found nothing.
Would like to know, since I thought I had studied his work enough to have found that already.

Thank you.

[Jake Norwood]

Hi Jeff. I'm responding from my phone so excuse my brevity. I'm referring to the schulfechten passage on 52 verso:

http://marylandkdf.com/wiki/index.php?t ... _-_Hanko_Döbringer_-_Cod.HS.3227a#Page_80_.5BNo._52_verso.5D

If you wish to fight someone in school fencing [Schulfechten] or for play [Schimpf] and wish to be courteous, and then place your sword a bit in front of you. Then move into the barrier guard [Schrankhute] on both sides and try to find openings on both sides with good footwork. Then come into the lower hanging [Uenderhengen], do this also on both sides with proper footwork. Then you should do the upper hanging [Oeberhengen ] on both sides with good footwork. Then do the cross strike [Thwer hewe] on both sides, and again with good footwork. You should always step at the same time when you move the play of the sword to one side. If you move to the left side, then set the right foot forward, and the opposite on the other side. And if you do this as you approach him, then you are doing in play what is good in earnest.

This was one of the passages that Matt Galas felt demonstrated a pre-fencing flourish for a fechtschule. I've been playing around with it a bit and it doesn't feel like a good way to attempt to close through the zufechten, but it's great as a warmup and little "reminder" for the flourishing fighter that there are guards and cuts other than vom tag and zorn right before a bout.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I think you guys are correct, and I think I should have realised that passage for what it seems to be, some kind of pre-bouting flourish.

Would only offer transcription and another translation of same passage (52v), both by Grzegorz Zabinski, from his Unarmoured Longsword Combat of Master Liechtenauer via Priest Döbringer:

[52v] Wiltu weydenlich / czu eyme gehen / in schulfechten zo du schimpf / und ho[e]bscheit gerest treiben / So scho[e]te czum ersten dyn swert mutticleich / Und valle czu hant in dy schrankhute czu beyden seiten / und su[e]che dy leger weydlich / von eyner seiten of / dy ander / mit schreten / Dornoch kom in dy u[e]nderhengen / auch czu beiden seiten / mit schreten / Dornoch kom / in dy o[e]berhengen czu beyden seiten / mit schreten / Dornoch kom in dy thwer hewe / czu beiden seiten / mit schreten / alzo / wen du der egnanten gefechte eyns furest / czu eyner seiten / das du do / mete schreitest / fu[e]rest du is czu der linken seiten / zo secze den rechten fus vor / et equaliter / Und das volbrenge als e du czu ieme komest / als underwegen / wen du den czu ieme kumpst / zo treib denne etzwas redlichs / was do czu schimpfe tawg etc.

If you want to go splendidly against someone from scholastic swordsmanship in combative games, desiring to drive at him beautifully, then first shake your sword bravely and assume immediately the “fence guard” on both sides, and search for the guards broadly from one side to the other with steps.Then come to the lower “hangings” also on both sides with steps. Then come in the upper “hangings” on both sides with steps.Then come to the “cross strikes” on both sides with steps, so that as you do one of the afore-mentioned techniques to one side, you also step with it. If you do it on the left side, put the right foot forwards and vice versa.And drive it as soon as you come to him – when underway, as you come to him, drive something quickly, whatever is proper to combative games.

Either translation plausibly supports interpretation of flourishing.

Cool

[Jake Norwood]

Much better, Jeff, yeah. That is much closer to the way the passage sounded in Matt's lecture (probably the same translation). And what I love about it is that it comes from a manual which, at first glance, seems so anti-schulfechten. All things have their proper context, after all.

What I like about this flourish is that it isn't flashy; it's actually quite utilitarian as a warmup and a brief demonstration of competence for someone on a winding-heavy art.

[A Froster]

Jake,

Can you please go over the method Matt used to make four cuts on one plane? That part is a little fuzzy to me.

[Jake Norwood]

...lemme remember. I've been working with the other one (in two directions), but not that one. IIRC, I *think* it was...

0. Start in left wechsel or neben
1. unterhau to right einhorn
2. sturzhau to left neben
3. short-edge unterhau to right vom tag
4. right zorn into left wechsel


That doesn't seem quite right as far as the order goes, but those are the right 4 cuts.

Jake