opinions on a different perspective

[Jeremiah Smith]

Alright
I have been watching these guys for a while. like many I at first wanted to discount what they were doing because I thought it looked too much like classical fencing. however the more I watch, the more I am drawn to the conclusion that they have an insight into something that many of us have been ignoring (if not ignoring just plainly not practicing).

video here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XVO3jBgWi0

Discussion on the schola forum here. read it, its good and short

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/vi ... =3&t=17793

In any case I understand that what they focus on and what they do, doesn't look like what a lot of us do. however they claim German resources and quote them well. moreover I would hate to be caught in krieg with one of these guys and from what I have been reading and watching they have some very valid points.

I wondered what the rest of you thought of this group and in particular the spanish way of longsword fencing. I think they are really doing a lot in the bind that many of us don't and it may be well worth it to bring them out to one of the big U.S. events to do a class on winding and economy of movement at least

Opinions

[Richard Marsden]

Interesting! I've never sparred against someone like that so I really can't say, "I think it is 'good' or 'bad'". It is different from what I do!

Here is what I noticed. Bear in mind I'm a Fiore fellow.

1 = They seek to bind at a distance then work in. I see why, they want control of the sword then to work in a hit. Most of the hits, lest my eyes deceive me, are cuts to long point and aimed at the hand/arm, and followed up with a thrust if that doesn't work. Of particular note was a lovely half-sword thrust.

2 = They keep at 'wide measure', meaning the blades are engaged but they are not close enough to physically grab one another without passing in. Both of them seem content at this measure and stay in it. One moves in, the other moves back, and so on as they (from this wide bind) seek their hit. In Fiore terms, they stay crossed at the tips and middle, but not in the typical manner. They like to threaten one another continually with the point. 1:27-1:49 is good example of this.

3 = I can tell they fight one another a lot. There is a rhythm to it and I see this in my own work against people I've sparred with over and over as we 'learn' one another's movements and have to get tricky to break up old habits and patterns! There is 'some' agreement by both parties to fight at the measure they have chosen. Agreement sounds harsh. Strategy. They have the same strategy.

4 = Very mobile, moving off-line and changing guards frequently, but being cautious about going for openings without control of the opponent's blade.

5 = CLANG CLANG CLANG.

[Dan Sellars]

Alright
I have been watching these guys for a while. like many I at first wanted to discount what they were doing because I thought it looked too much like classical fencing. however the more I watch, the more I am drawn to the conclusion that they have an insight into something that many of us have been ignoring (if not ignoring just plainly not practicing).

video here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XVO3jBgWi0

Discussion on the schola forum here. read it, its good and short

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/vi ... =3&t=17793

In any case I understand that what they focus on and what they do, doesn't look like what a lot of us do. however they claim German resources and quote them well. moreover I would hate to be caught in krieg with one of these guys and from what I have been reading and watching they have some very valid points.

I wondered what the rest of you thought of this group and in particular the spanish way of longsword fencing. I think they are really doing a lot in the bind that many of us don't and it may be well worth it to bring them out to one of the big U.S. events to do a class on winding and economy of movement at least

Opinions

I have been watching them for a long time too. I think that we could all learn a lot of useful lessons from them. It is some of the most beautiful fencing I have seen, they are balanced, fluid and graceful. Which when you consider most fencing especially online looks more than a bit sh!t really (some downright cringe-worthy) even when the people doing it are supposedly good, is praise indeed.

[ashultz]

I'm a big fan of what they're doing as training and they do it really well. But I don't believe that this is what the full art actually looks like. Missing are full blows, fool, vom tag (this is arguable, but mostly they use a vom tag with low hands, which operates like a point-refused plow), springing, and a bunch of other stuff.

I think some of it is choice of equipment - you can't train at the speed they're going with steel and moderate protection and include full blows. Which may influence interpretation - "since this is what we can do it must be right" or could go the other way "since this is what we think the art is we can use this equipment.

So... it's great stuff and I think I'll be stealing it to add to our existing bind-sparring but it's not enough for me.

[ChrisWalters]

While pretty, the video above hits my "no way" meter... Fighting is inherently violent. When done correctly, it's also pretty... but it's still violent.

When I think about what a true fight would look like, it's a lot more like this (at least in my mind)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2zA9EabWmM

I just don't see the same intensity from thier fights....

[Jess Rozek]

Somehow, on first viewing, this doesn't look at "martial art-y" as we like to see, but the fluidity is fantastic. There is definitely something here even though it does look like they were following a strategy of sorts, but can you imagine this kind of fluidity combined with the skill and intent of Axel and Anders in that Swordfish video? Combining the two styles could bring swordplay to a whole new level.

[Shay Roberts]

This is lovely to watch. These guys are graceful. But I would not really call this German fencing, even though Von Danzig was fond of fighting from longpoint. Döby seems to envision the fight very differently. In the video they are constantly leaving the bind to seek an opening, waiting for an opponent to make a mistake. But in a committed and proper attack, it should be unsafe to leave the bind. Most of the hits in this video are not a result of working from the bind, but from leaving the bind to dart into to a momentary opening. This is possible because of the lack of force directed at the opponent during an attack. Even if not strictly German, this approach can work, but seems more suited for a longer, lighter weapon.

[Michael Chidester]

Very pretty bind work. I'd like to see it slowed down and zoomed in to see what the intention of a lot of those smaller movements was.

[Jeremiah Smith]

I will agree that there is a point of the fight that is not readily apparent in any of their recent videos, and that is the long range fight. The big cuts and large movements that you commonly see in many other groups (including mine) way of fencing, and speaking for myself, and most of us I think, we often feel like this is the thing to practice. its athletic and brutal and feels more like what we "think" a longsword fight should be.

however when you take a closer look, these guys know about that part of the fight as evidenced in their older videos here.
http://www.youtube.com/user/DarkFury#p/u/23/lYwdE3f5fFQ
http://www.youtube.com/user/DarkFury#p/u/22/52fQxGG-z3E
http://www.youtube.com/user/DarkFury#p/u/21/5YQP6lthpLA

this one has some of their winding stuff at first but if you fast forward to around 1:00 you will see more of what I'm talking about
http://www.youtube.com/user/DarkFury#p/u/19/1hBPv8GdS_Y

watching any of these videos will quickly reveal that at least 4 years ago they trained the exact same things that many of us do, in nearly the exact same way. Big zorns, unterhaus and wide measure, footwork as described and plenty of wrestling. But somewhere along the way (of course only by video evidence) they decided to focus on the Krieg part of the fight.

and here is what I think is why

from lindholm's translation of 3227.a
Glossa. Note here that the turning in is the rightful art and foundation of all fencing with the sword. From these stem all other fencings and techniques and it is impossible to be a good swordsman (without knowing) the turning in.

and from Meyers 1570 by Rassmusen
The second or Handwork in the Middle Stage involves the greatest art, where all your withdrawals in the fight can be advances.

Clearly many, if not all of the masters felt like the Krieg is the most important part of the fight, in fact the section of the ringeck gloss that says no one should learn to fence if they frighten easily is speaking specifically about the krieg.
I'm not trying to convince anyone that the wide measure fight isn't important. only that if you watch closely at what these guys are doing you will see all of the proper techniques done at close range.
Their argument for why goes along the lines of the verse about Sprechfenster where Lichtenauer tells us that if you control the center line with your point with outstretched arms it will be very difficult for your opponent to come at you any other way then to bind and wind.

just to sort of prove the point here is video of some very experienced fighters that we all know well here, in a recent fight, where clearly the focus is at Krieg and it looks very similar to my eyes to what the spanish are doing.
(I hope Jake and Roland dont mind)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scbu5HDWz8k

I guess what I am really doing is coming to the defense of what they are focusing on since nearly everyone wants to say it doesn't look like a real sword fight, but the more I study the sources the more I'm convinced that a sword fight between two very experienced swordsmen would look more like this then we want to believe, and therefore shouldn't be dismissed I can easily imagine Meyers fencing school having fights that look very close to this. quick controlled movement and a calm, confident demeanor, certainly not a lot of wasted energy.

I think there clearly is a lot to learn and absorb here

[Dan Sellars]

I will agree that there is a point of the fight that is not readily apparent in any of their recent videos, and that is the long range fight. The big cuts and large movements that you commonly see in many other groups (including mine) way of fencing, and speaking for myself, and most of us I think, we often feel like this is the thing to practice. its athletic and brutal and feels more like what we "think" a longsword fight should be.

however when you take a closer look, these guys know about that part of the fight as evidenced in their older videos here.
http://www.youtube.com/user/DarkFury#p/u/23/lYwdE3f5fFQ
http://www.youtube.com/user/DarkFury#p/u/22/52fQxGG-z3E
http://www.youtube.com/user/DarkFury#p/u/21/5YQP6lthpLA

this one has some of their winding stuff at first but if you fast forward to around 1:00 you will see more of what I'm talking about
http://www.youtube.com/user/DarkFury#p/u/19/1hBPv8GdS_Y

watching any of these videos will quickly reveal that at least 4 years ago they trained the exact same things that many of us do, in nearly the exact same way. Big zorns, unterhaus and wide measure, footwork as described and plenty of wrestling. But somewhere along the way (of course only by video evidence) they decided to focus on the Krieg part of the fight.

and here is what I think is why

from lindholm's translation of 3227.a
Glossa. Note here that the turning in is the rightful art and foundation of all fencing with the sword. From these stem all other fencings and techniques and it is impossible to be a good swordsman (without knowing) the turning in.

and from Meyers 1570 by Rassmusen
The second or Handwork in the Middle Stage involves the greatest art, where all your withdrawals in the fight can be advances.

Clearly many, if not all of the masters felt like the Krieg is the most important part of the fight, in fact the section of the ringeck gloss that says no one should learn to fence if they frighten easily is speaking specifically about the krieg.
I'm not trying to convince anyone that the wide measure fight isn't important. only that if you watch closely at what these guys are doing you will see all of the proper techniques done at close range.
Their argument for why goes along the lines of the verse about Sprechfenster where Lichtenauer tells us that if you control the center line with your point with outstretched arms it will be very difficult for your opponent to come at you any other way then to bind and wind.

just to sort of prove the point here is video of some very experienced fighters that we all know well here, in a recent fight, where clearly the focus is at Krieg and it looks very similar to my eyes to what the spanish are doing.
(I hope Jake and Roland dont mind)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scbu5HDWz8k

I guess what I am really doing is coming to the defense of what they are focusing on since nearly everyone wants to say it doesn't look like a real sword fight, but the more I study the sources the more I'm convinced that a sword fight between two very experienced swordsmen would look more like this then we want to believe, and therefore shouldn't be dismissed I can easily imagine Meyers fencing school having fights that look very close to this. quick controlled movement and a calm, confident demeanor, certainly not a lot of wasted energy.

I think there clearly is a lot to learn and absorb here

QFT