opinions on a different perspective

[Jeremiah Smith]

Very pretty bind work. I'd like to see it slowed down and zoomed in to see what the intention of a lot of those smaller movements was.

here is some video of them slowed down for teaching I think
http://www.youtube.com/user/DarkFury#p/u/13/m_El0xAKBaI
http://www.youtube.com/user/DarkFury#p/u/16/jtisxi1dxdY

also Dan
Im not sure what QFT stands for

[Philip Fox]

I think Carlos in the Schola Forums brings up a good point when he says, "The more experienced the fighter is, the more he will try to secure his survival, and you are going to die very soon if you just try to hit the openings. " You can see this in the timing of strikes and counters. To my eye, I see a fluidity, a rhythmic probing of strong and weak force and then a violent move in for the kill that can't be followed by a successful afterblow most of the times. This actually looks much more like rapier free play to me than longsword. I don't know that I would hang my blade out there as long as they do. You actually see at least once in the video one take the sword of the other. (I am unable to watch the entirety until later) Very interesting stuff though.

[Keith P. Myers]

I


I guess what I am really doing is coming to the defense of what they are focusing on since nearly everyone wants to say it doesn't look like a real sword fight, but the more I study the sources the more I'm convinced that a sword fight between two very experienced swordsmen would look more like this then we want to believe, and therefore shouldn't be dismissed I can easily imagine Meyers fencing school having fights that look very close to this. quick controlled movement and a calm, confident demeanor, certainly not a lot of wasted energy.

I think there clearly is a lot to learn and absorb here

I agree with you. I don't think two people holding actual sharpened swords and wearing little to no protection would go charging at each other like we often see in modern tournaments. The likelihood of injury, death, or a "double kill" is just too high. I also see a "real sword fight" looking more like this video, where the swordsmen are a bit more reserved and seek the bind with the intent of controlling the opponent's motion rather than swinging big blows at each other.

To paraphrase some advice heard in Filipino Martial Arts circles: "in a real knife fight you have only a 1 in 3 chance of survival. If you are more skilled than the opponent you may live. If he is more skilled than you, then you will die. If you are equally skilled then you will likely both die." I think the same would apply to a swordfight.

[Dan Sellars]

...
also Dan
Im not sure what QFT stands for

Quoted For Truth

Basically I agree.

[Jake Norwood]

I agree with you. I don't think two people holding actual sharpened swords and wearing little to no protection would go charging at each other like we often see in modern tournaments.

...or free-fencing in general. I see nothing tournament-specific about this. Bad fighting is bad fighting. Period.

However, for a reality check, I'd also like to point out that a great deal (perhaps most) "real fighting" is also bad fighting. Real =/= good or skilled. Any two morons can hack each other apart, and I have no doubt that it happened very often...I've seen it in other places, certainly, in situations no less "life and death."

But two skilled fencers, fighting with sharps, to the death...yeah, that wouldn't look like that at all, I'd wager. Unless the nerves overcame them.

Jake

[Jeremiah Smith]

I agree with you. I don't think two people holding actual sharpened swords and wearing little to no protection would go charging at each other like we often see in modern tournaments.

But two skilled fencers, fighting with sharps, to the death...yeah, that wouldn't look like that at all, I'd wager. Unless the nerves overcame them.

Jake

I'm unclear on this reply Jake do you mean to say that two skilled fencers would be more reserved and not rush in? or the opposite? Are you agreeing with Kieth here?

I agree that probably most real fighting is/was bad fighting skilled or not.

[Michael Chidester]

Ah, but the point of training, in my opinion, is to develop to the point where you don't act like a moron. So regardless of how many double kills happened historically, I don't for a moment believe that this was acceptable to the writers of the manuals, and it stands to reason that the art is intended to avoid such things. Any interpretation that doesn't allow us to avoid such things should be questioned.

[Joey Nitti]

I like the vid. These guys obviously have a very good sense of fuhlen. Maybe they aren't doing as many powerful cuts as other groups, but most people don't do enough winden, so I don't see any problem. We're all here to learn from each other, and we (speaking for myself at least) can learn a lot from these guys about winden.

Besides, to add to what Jeremiah said, here's another video that I like, it's from our good friends at Hammaborg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7j4Bjl8U34&feature=player_detailpage

they are doing a lot of winding with sword and buckler, as well as striking.



as for what a "real" swordfight looks like, I don't know if there is one answer to that. It obviously depends on who's fighting, doesn't it? I think the question we need to ask is "what would Liechtenauer say?" (or any other fencing master). Of course I have no way of knowing, but I suspect Liechtenauer would recognize what our spanish friends are doing as part of his art.

[Michael-Forest]

Man; another group I wish I could go train with.

Frankly, I'm really impressed with what they're doing. There's an extremely highly level of skill there. Perhaps this sort of bind-work is not the entire Art, but it's certainly one part of it, and these guys seem to be rather good at that.

[Jeremiah Smith]

Just to add more here are more of their videos.

this one with multiple weapons
http://www.youtube.com/user/DarkFury#p/u/3/phK_SJrzx3s

and this one for Michael C for the slowing down
http://www.youtube.com/user/DarkFury#p/u/7/dSVuOYp37fw

Also for Andy, if you watch the second video there is plenty of vom tag (at the shoulder at least) and alber/nebenhut.
another reply though to your comment. These guys are wearing the hema specific fencing jackets from the time seller that everyone was so gaga over a few months back, also they aren't wearing anything super like lacrosse gloves, yet they are judiciously using a thumb grip, with steel swords no less, so they must have a confidence in each other and their defenses that I dont have even against people I fight and drill with regularly.
I agree its not the total art though but an important part none the less

So after watching these vids they are clearly sparring with intent. maybe not the same intent as the Polish or the GHFS but I certainly would feel uncomfortable being hit by them.
But it brings up an interesting question, I would never say anything bad about what Fetchshule Gdanks, or any of the schools in Poland was doing, and it seems from reading any how, that lots of people are coming around to see the validity in the way they fight. They are seemingly crazy brutal and fast. However many people have called them out on other forums for not using correct footwork or guards. In fact I can remember Jan having to defend their videos on several occasions. But one thing is abundantly clear. they win fights, against people in the community at large at least on home turf anyhow, so their technique is working in that setting. I would call what the polish do the long range fight.
But since I don't know anyone from america or anyone on this forum who has actually gone to fight Carlos or one of his students, how can anyone be sure that this sort of close range controlled fight doesn't work equally as well. Lichtenauer and Meyer both think it does.
and really if we are balking at the fact that they are using such small movements and actions to win against each other shouldn't we all be questioning our buffaloness? again just coming to their defense, since my groups focus is elsewhere atm but
figuring out what they are doing is going to be a big part soon

just my thoughts