Vom Tag = From the Day (Literally?)

Discussions about manual study, translations, philology, historical research, and similar topics.

Re: Vom Tag = From the Day (Literally?)

Postby Joey Nitti » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:13 pm

ShaunnM.W. wrote:I would assume that they named it after what it looked like which makes since since the Ochs guard is reminescent of an Ox, and Pflug is reminescent of a plow in relation to hand placement. I can only guess that Alber is named because you look foolish to have your tip off target and not truly guarding you?


hmm that seems like a very reasonable way to look at it. I don't see any reason why vom tag would be named under a different convention than the other 3. Assuming that, vom tag must somehow look like "from the day" AND "from the roof". I think the key is the "from the __" part. If the guard just looked like a roof, or like the day, it would just be called "tag" (in the same manner as "alber", "pflug", or "ochs"). I guess the thing to figure out is how the medieval mind would have seen the guard as looking like "from the day/roof".
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Re: Vom Tag = From the Day (Literally?)

Postby Jason Taylor » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:30 pm

ShaunnM.W. wrote: However stand with the sun in your eyes, and go to an overhead Vom Tag and suddenly your "roof guard" shields your eyes "from the day" which seems to makes sense.


Your explanation makes some sense, but the translation of "from" you're using is somewhat deceptive, based on our understanding of the word "from" and it's differing understanding in German. Mind you, I'm speaking in modern German here, so Medieval German may be different, but the particualar parts I'm referencing here actually tend to work pretty well in the translation I've done (though admittedly that's been a lot of later stuff, for example Mair).

Anyway, the preposition "von" means generally "from" in our sense of the word for something coming out of out from within something else. So "vom Tag" would be "from the roof/day" in the sense that it's coming out of that position or something relating to the metaphor for that position.

The "from" you're using here is actually what the Germans would use the word "gegen," or "against," for. In general, when Germans protect themselves from something, or have allergies to something, or whatever, they use "gegen": literally, "I protect myself against the sun."

Hope that clarifies--but even so, there's nothing wrong with your take on this at least as a mnemonic device.

FWIW, I personally think "Roof" makes more sense. That's how I translate it. Though in Kron, we like to subdivide into simple names, so instead of calling the high vom tag "High vom tag" or "high roof" or "that roof where you hold it over your head instead of on your shoulder," we call that one "falcon" after the Italian and the other two right or left roof. It's easier to transmit instructions quickly that way, even though we're better than 90% a KdF school.

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Re: Vom Tag = From the Day (Literally?)

Postby Keith P. Myers » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:08 am

Jason has a good point about the preposition "vom". And I still think you guys are over-thinking this. In my mind "from the day" is a translation error and incorrect. So there's no need to try and justify it. I explained why previously. Another note....later in the tradition the guard is often just called "Oberhut." This is the term that Jakob Sutor uses.
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Re: Vom Tag = From the Day (Literally?)

Postby Michael Chidester » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:10 pm

ShaunnM.W. wrote:I can only guess that Alber is named because you look foolish to have your tip off target and not truly guarding you?

An alternate explanation is that it's Alber meaning Poplar Tree, and is a reference to rooting your sword or some such.
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Re: Vom Tag = From the Day (Literally?)

Postby James Wallhausen » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:36 pm

Michael Chidester wrote:An alternate explanation is that it's Alber meaning Poplar Tree, and is a reference to rooting your sword or some such.


I don't suppose you know the reference/citation for that do you? I was going to cite it recently, but couldn't track it down when I needed it...
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Re: Vom Tag = From the Day (Literally?)

Postby Michael Chidester » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:44 pm

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Re: Vom Tag = From the Day (Literally?)

Postby James Wallhausen » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:54 pm

Michael Chidester wrote:I'm going off this old thread:

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showth ... ost1113039


Ah, I remember this one. Doesn't seem to offer an citation for the instance of the term in the original manual though...?
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Re: Vom Tag = From the Day (Literally?)

Postby John Harmston » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:39 pm

I thought it was a Doebringer reference, but I don't recall for sure.

In fact, as I remembered it some historical writer had referenced Alber as "the fool's guard", but in my original reading of it that wasn't meant to be a literal translation of the word "alber". Since then, it seems like quite a few translators have translated alber as "fool" literally, but I was never clear if that was an accurate, historical translation, or merely a nickname that had been adopted as the literal meaning in modern times.
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Re: Vom Tag = From the Day (Literally?)

Postby Keith P. Myers » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:41 pm

James Wallhausen wrote:
Michael Chidester wrote:I'm going off this old thread:

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showth ... ost1113039


Ah, I remember this one. Doesn't seem to offer an citation for the instance of the term in the original manual though...?



Go here:

http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Paulus_Hector_Mair

Click on "Longsword". Scroll down to plate #8. Check out the latin transcription. I don't know latin, but this is evidently the plate where the latin word is "poplar" rather than "fool."
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Re: Vom Tag = From the Day (Literally?)

Postby RJ McKeehan » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:45 pm

In regards to alber and "fool"- I have heard justification for fool making sense because a fool could commonly be referring to more of a jester in medieval times, known for their clever tricks... fitting for alber because when facing an opponent in fool it is not always clear what their presenting strike is.
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