Spanish /Iberic Lonsword Historical Sources?

[Frederico Martins]

I read a book from a modern historian that said that the Portuguese swords and fencing (and spanish too but the book was about the Portuguese in particular) headed towards more light and thrusting swords as early as the 1400. This was in the time of the discoveries and they favored sword and dagger, even against heavier weapons, usually against Muslims. They could parry with the dagger, the said heavier weapons, and thrust with the sword for faster and "effortless" killings.

So at some point there were this lighter swords, And the huge montantes. However the lighter swords seem to be much more predominant.

[jose_ortiz]

Any Iberic findings (including portuguese )would be great findings. A digital copy of the Monte manual can be reach here: http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/topics/so ... llectanea/

[jose_ortiz]

Ok, here is also the thread I started on the Destreza forum you guys recommended.: http://destreza.us/forum/posting.php?mo ... 5f738&t=52

[Dan Sellars]

Doesn't Duarte have some fencing in it as well as horsemanship?

[steve hick]

Doesn't Duarte have some fencing in it as well as horsemanship?

Dom Duarte has so little. He has a single chapter in his Bem Cavalgar one mounted sword, and it really only discusses three different types of attacks and some tactical consideration. HIs Regimento, which is a single page in another of his manuscripts has how to train at all weapons and it basically says -- train daily.

There is evidence for hand and half swords and two handed swords that might not be as large as the later montante, but, there is nothing technical that is contemporary. Even the descriptions of 15th century MSS are from the 17th century.

Steve

[jose_ortiz]

is it possible to find a mirror document and /or translation/transcription of these on the web?

[Dan Sellars]

Doesn't Duarte have some fencing in it as well as horsemanship?

Dom Duarte has so little. He has a single chapter in his Bem Cavalgar one mounted sword, and it really only discusses three different types of attacks and some tactical consideration. HIs Regimento, which is a single page in another of his manuscripts has how to train at all weapons and it basically says -- train daily.

There is evidence for hand and half swords and two handed swords that might not be as large as the later montante, but, there is nothing technical that is contemporary. Even the descriptions of 15th century MSS are from the 17th century.

Steve

Oh that is a shame I always hoped for more in there, seeing as he was raised at the English court (iirc) I wondered what, if any, relation it would have to the way martial arts and horsemanship were practiced in England at the time.

[steve hick]

Thanks a lot Kevin,

It is curious that apparently not even in America(and I don t mean the US) a manual or similar work have surfaced. The mere idea of a discovery like this excites me. I have been sculking for a little while around mexican and spanish forums....and there seems to be no definite answer to this, which is even more confusing.

I m reading everything I got on Destreza to see if there is any mention of montante, bastarda, manoymedia there. But these manuals seem to be from the later 1600s and well into the 1700s.

On the other hand it appears that the name Montante has been used for the manymedia(hand and a half longsword) and a longer two-handed sword.which is a bit confusing. Apparently the montante became a relic of an earlier tradition but it was still used symbolically and as an instrument later on.

Well, there might be fragments lying around, Manuel Valle and Mary Curtis published a work ca 1580--1 page long. There are not many hints in the bibliographies -- Pons, delaTorre from the 15th, Roman & Sayas y Alfero from the 16th. Everything else not lost has been evaluated, most are either not fencing books, or do not cover the hand and a half or two handed sword (long sword). Manuel has been hunting without finding anything more. Not to say there isn't but there's not a hint.
Steve

[steve hick]

Doesn't Duarte have some fencing in it as well as horsemanship?

Dom Duarte has so little. He has a single chapter in his Bem Cavalgar one mounted sword, and it really only discusses three different types of attacks and some tactical consideration. HIs Regimento, which is a single page in another of his manuscripts has how to train at all weapons and it basically says -- train daily.

There is evidence for hand and half swords and two handed swords that might not be as large as the later montante, but, there is nothing technical that is contemporary. Even the descriptions of 15th century MSS are from the 17th century.

Steve

Oh that is a shame I always hoped for more in there, seeing as he was raised at the English court (iirc) I wondered what, if any, relation it would have to the way martial arts and horsemanship were practiced in England at the time.

The most interesting thing in the Bem Cavalgar is the interlude on wrestling. He had a master compose it for him, as it is something he believed was being ignored even in his time.

Steve

[Sean M]

Doesn't Duarte have some fencing in it as well as horsemanship?

Dom Duarte has so little. He has a single chapter in his Bem Cavalgar one mounted sword, and it really only discusses three different types of attacks and some tactical consideration. HIs Regimento, which is a single page in another of his manuscripts has how to train at all weapons and it basically says -- train daily.

There is evidence for hand and half swords and two handed swords that might not be as large as the later montante, but, there is nothing technical that is contemporary. Even the descriptions of 15th century MSS are from the 17th century.

Steve

Has the Regimento been published or translated? I am collecting sources on knightly training, but I doubt I will ever learn 15th century Iberian languages.