Bad Behavior at Modern Sword-Tourneys

[Steven H]

Sound is a very important part of judging, you may not be able to see a hit sometimes but you may hear it happening; this is the case in kendo too. Therefore (and other reasons), imo, total silence should be enforced during the exchanges.

Yes, but that's part of the simulators being used in Kendo. They are designed to make noise. However, a foil doesn't make (much) noise on a good thrust.

[ashultz]

Sound is a very important part of judging, you may not be able to see a hit sometimes but you may hear it happening; this is the case in kendo too. Therefore (and other reasons), imo, total silence should be enforced during the exchanges.

Judging by sound annoys me greatly in our tournaments, because hits that if seen look useless can really make a nice crack off any hard plastic guard people wear. It's hard as a judge to say to yourself "I didn't see it, I'm not going to call it" but that is what we should do if we don't want to encourage people to wear quieter and less safe protection.

[Mike Ruhala]

Sound is a very important part of judging, you may not be able to see a hit sometimes but you may hear it happening; this is the case in kendo too. Therefore (and other reasons), imo, total silence should be enforced during the exchanges.

That's a good point and with so many people wearing black right now depth perception is thrown off so sound is even more important than usual. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the reason behind extra noisy kendo weapons.

Again - HEMA is too diverse for us all to agree 100% on anything, let alone everything.

That is also a good point.

[Darijan R.]

Sound is a very important part of judging, you may not be able to see a hit sometimes but you may hear it happening; this is the case in kendo too. Therefore (and other reasons), imo, total silence should be enforced during the exchanges.

That's a good point and with so many people wearing black right now depth perception is thrown off so sound is even more important than usual. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the reason behind extra noisy kendo weapons.

And "silent kote". Also, what Shaunn said.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Honestly, if I saw you getting 'absolutely enraged' over people shouting at an open format tournament that involves a large crowd, I'd probably desire that you leave too.

That would depend upon whether or not I were to make such apparent. In any case, if I were to leave, then I would be demonstrating greater self-control than the sort of crowd of which you may approve.

Coaches coaching mid-fight is not rare in western competitive events, whatever type they may be.

That does not make it right. Nobody should get any shouted advice or for that matter shouted insults. I have always thought it unseemly that anybody gets shouted coaching during any event for any athletic endeavor. And yes, I have attended and/or taken part in events for wrestling, track & field, powerlifting, football, basketball, baseball etc. I have had the distinct displeasure of witnessing humans misbehave at such. Bloody tiresome.

Crowd members shouting their support is perfectly common in western competitive events. A chant for country is definitely not rare either. I see no reason that shouting detracts from the legitimacy or seriousness of a competition. Maybe if it were a formalized, non-open competition? Maybe. But the videos you've seen are not those.

I appreciate that and that seems reasonable

Edit: And to make it clear, I don't actually care one way or another. I'd be fine with either shouting or polite clapping. What I find ridiculous is the comment I quoted.

Cf. my previous defence of my right to be enraged and thereupon leave an event.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I fail to see how this is 'bad behavior'.

As a competitor I find it invigorating that other people are as passionate about the fight as I am.

You should show up to the PNW gathering this year Jeff, it is with in driving distance. There will be some good fights, good people, and will be a lot of fun.

Lee, that is very nice of you to invite me to that.

However, I am not at liberty to make plans for any such event, due to circumstances which frankly are not anybody's business.

That is all I will say, or for that matter should have to say, about that.

However: Thanks again.

[Philip Fox]

I think the issue of coaching at tournaments is an interesting topic that I would love to see further discussed. If I were to accept that one of the purposes of a tournament is a teaching tool then the act of coaching during an event would seem in some ways in line with that, however one of the other purposes I've heard for tournaments is as a test of skill... so then, that begs the question, if you are having to be coached during a bout, are you less skilled? And further, even if you were to succeed wouldn't that only have been as a result of the coaching?

Forgive me if this has already been answered in the previous posts but I'm not sure I saw it addressed.

[W.T.Heinz]

Hello Folks


By contrast, one may read extremely strict rules for judicial dueling in Medieval Europe whereby nobody was allowed to make any sounds, to shout advice, to go into the arena to aid anyone, to use magic or poison or whatever or otherwise to help the champions in any way during the grim event of their combat. Otherwise halberd-armed royal guardsmen would remove such persons from the crowd.

There goes all my hope for FA. Guess I'll leave my copy of De occulta philosophia libri tres at home. But I am still bringing my schwarze pudel.

[Andreas Engström]

Coaches coaching mid-fight is not rare in western competitive events, whatever type they may be.

That does not make it right. Nobody should get any shouted advice or for that matter shouted insults. I have always thought it unseemly that anybody gets shouted coaching during any event for any athletic endeavor. And yes, I have attended and/or taken part in events for wrestling, track & field, powerlifting, football, basketball, baseball etc. I have had the distinct displeasure of witnessing humans misbehave at such. Bloody tiresome.

I'm sure you meant "That does not make me feel that it's right" and "In my opinion, nobody should get...". Or do you seriously mean that these are moral absolutes, imposed by some sort of HEMA God? (Or powerlifting God, as the case may be)

And there you go with talking about shouted insults again. I'm convinced that no-one here feels that's appropriate, and it also does not happen AFAIK. Where have you even heard about any "shouted insults"? It's certainly a convenient strawman to knock down.

-Andreas

[Bill Carew]

In my opinion, a bit of clapping, cheering and verbal encouragement in between exchanges and at the end of a match is fine.

I'm really not a fan of national cheering, mostly because here in Oz it's mostly a feature from drunk, racist bogans who like to wrap themselves in the flag while slagging off immigrants and asylum seekers. But that's a local, cultural issue.

What I'm really not on board with is making noise while the competitors are fencing. I think it shows more respect for them, and allows them to concentrate, when there is silence while they are actively engaged.

Yelling out coaching advice during the actual exchange is something I'd specifically like to see banned. For a number of reasons, but not least because it can be seriously off putting and distracting to both competitors. Also, fencers who have travelled long distances to fight in a tournament are unlikely to have the same level of support as local fencers: it seems a little rude to me to have a local fencer receive continuous coaching and verbal support when their opponent is not recieving any. It can feel like one of them is fighting not just a single opponent, but the coach and team mates as well.

Finally, on coaching, research I recall reading seemed to suggest that coaching during the activity can have a negative impact on performance, as it interferes with the performer's concentration and the OODA loop. IMO and from what I've read, coaching is only effective well before and well after the actual performance, not during it. My own experience bears this out: I hate having my concentration broken by someone trying to "coach" me mid-performance. I'd rather succeed or fail on my own ability and judgement, then have the post match reviews and introduce coaching to improve areas of observed weakness. But not during the match itself. YMMV