Meyer Rappier help

[Joey Nitti]

Oh yeah! I've already spent a good amount of time looking into the Bolognese Method. I plan to take Steve Reich's class on the subject at FA. I also live relatively close to him now, and hope to do some more extensive training with him in the future.

haha I was just reading some old threads on various forums about Meyer's Rappier, and I saw you mention that you were looking at the bolognese stuff. I should have known you'd already be a step ahead

I've been meaning to start some rappier. I've been doing longsword for about 6 months now, and I'm feeling pretty comfortable with it (not to say that I would consider myself "good", but just that I feel like I know what I'm doing with a longsword in my hands.) so maybe I'll take a break from longsword and do a bit of rappier for a while.

[Richard Marsden]

For what it is worth, we do a lot of weapon systems. Rappier, rapier, dussack, saber, single-stick, longsword, pogo-stick and so on. While some are fairly dense, I am surprised how often there can be cross-over. I know some hyper-focus on one or two arts, but I've found the dabble in this and that enlightening and a good building block for our 'bread and butter' WMA activities.

[Keith P. Myers]

I've been meaning to start some rappier. I've been doing longsword for about 6 months now, and I'm feeling pretty comfortable with it (not to say that I would consider myself "good", but just that I feel like I know what I'm doing with a longsword in my hands.) so maybe I'll take a break from longsword and do a bit of rappier for a while.

If you take what you've learned of the Longsword and think about how you would apply it to a single-handed weapon, then you'll be pretty close to Dussack! Now if you take that and think about how you'd make it more "thrusty", then you'll be pretty close to rappier/sidesword.

[Keith P. Myers]

My right knee is wearing out and I feel like all my weight is bearing down upon it. Am I doing something wrong?

Meyer's stances are fairly deep with the weight generally forward, so this can stress the front knee. But my guess is that you may be doing more of a deep "lunge" than stepping out with the front foot as Meyer advises, which would make that effect even worse. A deep lunge didn't come along until somewhat later in history. Also take a close look at your front foot alignment at the end of your lunge/step. You want your foot to point straight at the target or direction you have stepped. If it is turned off a bit to one side or the other then you are putting unnecessary torque on your knee. I think martial artists in general are prone to developing patello-femoral syndrome or "PFS", so try looking that up on-line and see if the description sounds familiar.

[Joey Nitti]

If you take what you've learned of the Longsword and think about how you would apply it to a single-handed weapon, then you'll be pretty close to Dussack! Now if you take that and think about how you'd make it more "thrusty", then you'll be pretty close to rappier/sidesword.

I do quite a bit of thrusting with longsword anyways (it seems like most of the hits I land on opponents are with the point), while dussack seems to be more cutting. You're right, and I could probably pick up on rappier really quickly, I just need to actually practice it!



related note, I can't stop watching the two vids of rappier freeplay on the MFFG website. So good. It's really a great looking style

[James Roberts]

My right knee is wearing out and I feel like all my weight is bearing down upon it. Am I doing something wrong?

Meyer's stances are fairly deep with the weight generally forward, so this can stress the front knee. But my guess is that you may be doing more of a deep "lunge" than stepping out with the front foot as Meyer advises, which would make that effect even worse. A deep lunge didn't come along until somewhat later in history. Also take a close look at your front foot alignment at the end of your lunge/step. You want your foot to point straight at the target or direction you have stepped. If it is turned off a bit to one side or the other then you are putting unnecessary torque on your knee. I think martial artists in general are prone to developing patello-femoral syndrome or "PFS", so try looking that up on-line and see if the description sounds familiar.

Biggest mistake in doing any sword style is in not adapting to your own body. Meyer could spend a lot of time weight forward, as can I- we've been doing it for a long time. However, he makes a point of telling you to vary your footwork, and alter the style to fit you ("what the marketplace demands"). You need enough weight forward to free the back foot for the triangle, nothing more. If you get things right, you only need a small step with your back foot, and you can do this easily from a high step. What is more important than a constantly aggressive forward stance is the ability to produce it on demand- the long lunge is essential to any thrusting art. Swapping between short and long strides is part of the game- remember, Meyer specifically tells you not to stay fixed in any stance, and much of his footwork is passing...

[Kevin Murakoshi]

So my latest question now is of knees.

My right knee is wearing out and I feel like all my weight is bearing down upon it. Am I doing something wrong?

Richard, is this a general problem or specifically an issue with Meyer's rappier?

Looking at your last Meyer video, it looks like your foot and knee are turning inwards in both your guard and lunge. This could put extra stress on the knee joint (since the force is no longer in the same direction as the kneee is flexing). Looking at your rapier videos, it looks like you have a much more upright stance while doing rapier, this would not stress the leg as much while in guard. (Which could explain why you're feeling it now).

On the lunge itself, it looks like you're trying a "hockey stop" type of landing, where the right toes are pointing inwards. This is believed to lead to long term knee damage, and is almost always corrected in the clubs I work in.
It's my experience, that this is most often caused by two things:
1)Wanting to stop the lunge early. This is something like a trying to stomp on the brakes in an non-antilock brake car. In this case, the "oh shit i'm too close" causes you to stomp down on your foot in any way you can to stop moving forward. (I know, I've done this my fair share of times). Traditionally, this is caused by not knowing your distance well and launching attacks from a very close distance. If you're aiming for a short lunge in general, see issue (2)
2) Landing with the toe, not the heel. Landing with the heel will generally put your toe in the right alignment (forward). Landing with your toe tends to cause you to turn inwards. There is debate on the "toe/heel" lunge landing in 17th century rapier, but in both cases the knee should flex in the direction of the toes. (I don't buy the "toe landing" hypothesis, but if you're trying that, I have separate comments. I can include them later if you like).
To fix this try and land always on the heel to start, then try landing with a flat foot. For a short lunge, try and tense your legs into the lunge position as you land to prevent you from leaning/turning when you land.

I would also be careful if you're lunging like this. I had a student once hurt his ankle by lunging this way. The popping noise was not pretty. I have another friend who can't lunge because of similar damage to his back knee obtained while doing '90s era saber fencing. Knees and fencers are nothing to mess with.

Note: I have no training in sports medicine. I have met and fenced with epeeists who fence like boxers with both feet inwards. (Though as I recall, they lunge like everyone else with the front toe forward).

[Steven Reich]

On the lunge itself, it looks like you're trying a "hockey stop" type of landing, where the right toes are pointing inwards. This is believed to lead to long term knee damage, and is almost always corrected in the clubs I work in.
It's my experience, that this is most often caused by two things:
1)Wanting to stop the lunge early. This is something like a trying to stomp on the brakes in an non-antilock brake car. In this case, the "oh shit i'm too close" causes you to stomp down on your foot in any way you can to stop moving forward. (I know, I've done this my fair share of times). Traditionally, this is caused by not knowing your distance well and launching attacks from a very close distance. If you're aiming for a short lunge in general, see issue (2)
2) Landing with the toe, not the heel. Landing with the heel will generally put your toe in the right alignment (forward). Landing with your toe tends to cause you to turn inwards. There is debate on the "toe/heel" lunge landing in 17th century rapier, but in both cases the knee should flex in the direction of the toes. (I don't buy the "toe landing" hypothesis, but if you're trying that, I have separate comments. I can include them later if you like).
To fix this try and land always on the heel to start, then try landing with a flat foot. For a short lunge, try and tense your legs into the lunge position as you land to prevent you from leaning/turning when you land.

FWIW, I agree 100% with Kevin on this. This is important and it will only get worse if you don't figure it out and fix it; you want to be able to fence well into your old-age.

Steve

[Richard Marsden]

My knee pain is coming from entering the Meyer stance itself. From what I'm reading, his rappier footwork is nearly always right leg leading with a few passing steps in the close-measure.

Italian rapier I backweight, no issue there.

In Fiore longsword my feet are a little closer together so back or forward weighted is no big deal, but in this, I'm starting off a little wider and some of the techniques call for deep steps and a lowering of the body. The most discomfort enters when I lean forward and more weight rests on the right knee.

I'll work on the hockey-stops to take off the torque.

I'll see if I can re-balance a bit.

Thanks much!

[JohnPatterson]

Maybe if you dropped a few pounds Richard it would take some stressful off your knees