Vom Tag = From the Day (Literally?)

[Anton Kohutovič]

Hi Christian,
1467 has also Tach with D. It's in dagger section so it doesn't have to refer longsword position.
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb ... /image_174

I hope I read it well.

[Darijan R.]

Meyer says Alber comes from the word Olber (or maybe it's the other way around), which means "Fool." I think by 1570 they were just as lost on the origin of some of these terms as we are.

Imo Meyer was more confused than some of us today. Assuming the 3227a is closest to the original Liechenauer teaching and that:

Pflug=Point on the ground in front of you
-> pretty self-explanatory right? That is how you actually operate a plow. pics

Schrankhut=variation of Pflug with the point to the sides
->gates (Schranken) have been around forever at that time, another very figurative name

Ochs=stayed canon
-> the sword makes for the horns of the Ox, again picture language

Alber=Unteres Hängen (vnderhange~)
-> in alber a h went missing (can't go into the phonetics now); actually it means/meant halber. Halb translates to half(way). Again very figurative but not by itself, only in context with the other guards: Pflug is the low guard, vom Tage is the high guard and Halber is, yeah you guessed it, the guard halway between them. Incidentally you have another high resp. low guard more: Ochs and Schrankhut so they don't actually break that high-middle-low pattern.

vom tage=stayed canon
->high guard, Sword held up high above or left or right beside the head. In the 3227a it clearly means Tag, which is always related to midday, when the sun is high(est). Tag becomes Tach (colloquial) and at some point that turns into Dach (roof), be it because the meaning "from above" doesn't actually change, be it because it was lost to them what it actually meant, whatever...

Now at some point, for whatever reason, either a. the guard names got mixed up after the 3227a or b. the 3227a (and I) got it wrong. Choose wisely!

/stuff

[Darijan R.]

I was sparring outside at the end of the summer and as it gets dark a floodlight on the side of the building we train at comes on, and is insanely bright. My opponent kept circling until I was blinded and then would attack while I was unable to see. I finally went to an overhead Vom Tag and found that my arms formed a "roof" which shielded my eyes from the light source "from the day" artificiall though it may have been. So I am hypothesizing that VomTag is "the Roof" which sheilds your eyes "from the day" (or from the sun). I have been mulling it over for a while and just thought I would share it with you. Some of you might find it interesting.

You may find it interesting that Lignitzer has a related term, called Sparren.

Das achte Stück

Hat er wiederum den Dolch gezogen,
du den deinen aber nicht,
steh unbekümmert vor ihm und mach den Sparren.
Sticht er dann oben zu dir,
greif ihm in seinem Gleichgewicht an.

(Dach)Sparren are the brown things in this picture, I believe they are called rafters in english:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... endach.jpg.

In practice it sould look like this:

[Alex B]

Pflug=Point on the ground in front of you
-> pretty self-explanatory right? That is how you actually operate a plow. pics
...
Alber=Unteres Hängen (vnderhange~)
-> in alber a h went missing (can't go into the phonetics now); actually it means/meant halber. Halb translates to half(way). Again very figurative but not by itself, only in context with the other guards: Pflug is the low guard, vom Tage is the high guard and Halber is, yeah you guessed it, the guard halway between them. Incidentally you have another high resp. low guard more: Ochs and Schrankhut so they don't actually break that high-middle-low pattern.
...
Now at some point, for whatever reason, either a. the guard names got mixed up after the 3227a or b. the 3227a (and I) got it wrong. Choose wisely!

I think the 3227a got it wrong. Yes, on the one hand, it describes Pflug thus:
"The first guard, the plough, is when you hold the point (of the sword) in front of you aimed at the ground or to the side. After a displacement it is called the barrier guard or simply the gate."
Folio 32r, translation by David Lindholm

But earlier, in the section on the Zwerchaw, it quoted Liechtenauer's verse as:
"Cross strike to the plough and follow hard to the ox"
Folio 27r, translation by David Lindholm

And then said this in its gloss:
"And you shall cross strike to both sides, to the ox and to the plough that is to the upper and the lower opening,"
Folio 28r, translation by David Lindholm

So once it describes Pflug as being held point first towards the ground, but it also quite clearly says that you should strike with the Zwerchaw to the Ox and to the Pflug. If the Pflug were held point down, this would mean that when striking with a string of Zwerchawe (I'm not entirely sure how you pluralise Zwerchaw), we should alternate our target area between the head and the legs, which seems unlikely.

[Keith P. Myers]

Hey Darijan!

Can't "sparren/sperren" mean "barring" as in "obstructing"? Joachim Meyer uses the word "sperren" for one of his defenses with the rappier/sidesword. Dr. Forgeng translated it as "barring." To mean it seems more like "bracing", which would kind of go along with the idea of a "rafter" which braces a roof. The interesting thing is that in Meyer's sidesword there is no real difference between the "sperren" and the typical "absetzen." The sperren is a obstructing guard, just to the lower right quadrant rather than one of the other three quadrants.

Now to take it further...."sparren/sperren" as "bracing" would go along with both of your picture examples, but wouldn't necessarily mean "roof" in the same way that "dach" means roof.

Just some random thoughts!

[Payson]

Aren't the spars of a ship the structural element similar in function to the rafters in a roof? Just a thought.

[Christian H. Tobler]

@Anton: Ah, excellent! Thanks!

@Alex: Yes, this has been my reasoning as well. If Pflug used to be the lowest guard, the verse and gloss for striking the Vier Blossen with the Zwerch would be nonsensical, since it obviously doesn't target the legs or feet.

Cheers,

Christian

[Darijan R.]

Hey Darijan!

Can't "sparren/sperren" mean "barring" as in "obstructing"? Joachim Meyer uses the word "sperren" for one of his defenses with the rappier/sidesword. Dr. Forgeng translated it as "barring." To mean it seems more like "bracing", which would kind of go along with the idea of a "rafter" which braces a roof. The interesting thing is that in Meyer's sidesword there is no real difference between the "sperren" and the typical "absetzen." The sperren is a obstructing guard, just to the lower right quadrant rather than one of the other three quadrants.

Now to take it further...."sparren/sperren" as "bracing" would go along with both of your picture examples, but wouldn't necessarily mean "roof" in the same way that "dach" means roof.

Just some random thoughts!

Well... Sparren is a technical term. In (Lignitzer's dagger) fencing as well as in roofing it is used because of it's increased structural strength. Sperren means to bar(ricade), block (of), lock, catch, dam. Of course you do all these to his incoming attack with your Sparren but the term is derived from it's obvious similarity to rafters that your forearms will form.

/more stuff

[Ben Floyd]

Aren't the spars of a ship the structural element similar in function to the rafters in a roof? Just a thought.

A sail can be attached to a "yard"or "yardarm" which is a cross beam on the mast which is permanently attached. Or it can be attached to a gaff, which is a spar (beam) that juts out from the mast and usually angled upward. The gaff (spar) is moveable and is what is used in "Fore & Aft Rigged" ships.



on a bigger boat:




Also: Poopdeck... hahahahaaaa

======================

Outside of that, Meyer also has sperren in his longsword section:

Note when an opponent stands before you in the Change or guard of the Fool, and fall forcefully with your long edge on his blade, and as soon as it clashes or touches, then cross your hands and bar him so that he cannot come out.

Or when he slashes up before you, then fall with crossed hands on his blade and bar him.

[James Wallhausen]

vom tage=stayed canon
->high guard, Sword held up high above or left or right beside the head. In the 3227a it clearly means Tag, which is always related to midday, when the sun is high(est). Tag becomes Tach (colloquial) and at some point that turns into Dach (roof), be it because the meaning "from above" doesn't actually change, be it because it was lost to them what it actually meant, whatever...

Don't forget some other sources which refer to the position as "von himmel", affirming this meaning of 'from above'. Moreover, were you aware that there was a form of poetry called 'alba' meaning 'sunrise'? Perhaps not relevant in this context, but still tantalising nonetheless...