Longsword "Approaches"

[Jeremiah Smith]

@Jeremiah: I do not completely understand your last statement. Why wouldn't a simple Zwerch to the temple when your opponent comes from Vom Tag work? The mentioned way to break Vom Tag and the strikes coming from it is a Zwerchhaw.

Oh I didn't mean to imply that it doesn't work at all, because of course it certainly does. What I meant to say is that it doesn't ALWAYS work. But nothing works every time. the intention of that statement was to imply that even perfect technique doesn't account for the unknown factors I mentioned.

[Joey Nitti]

I think a main factor is that people train almost exclusively with a select group of people in their club. It's unavoidable, but when everyone in a group (whether it's the spanish club, mine, etc) is learning from the same instructor, and practicing against the same opponents, it will lead to certain trends that everyone in a group follows (like "walking" into a bind like the spanish group, or whatever you want to call what my group does).

One thing I've realized about our group here is that one of the reasons why we don't get many full-blown hews to land is the distance we fight at. We are either out of distance for a direct cut, or we are in a bind while in distance. Unless someone does a schnappen or oben abgenomen or something, there isn't an opportunity to land a big cut. But anyways, enough about me

I think it would be very interesting to see more cross-training between groups who do things completely different. The spanish group does things very differently from most, so it would be very interesting to see how they would handle freeplay with someone else (and vice-versa).

[Davy Van Elst]

@Arto Fama: I'm perfectly aware that there are techniques were you don't strike to hit your opponent, but where you strike at the sword first, and then use a different technique to strike the person. The best example being the Krumphau of course, altough one can argument that you strike the blade because the hands are out of reach but that is a totally different discussion. I simply say that my main target in a fight is not the bind with the sword, I want to hit the man behind that sword if you know what I mean. If I have to do a krumphau to first get that sword out of the way, then I will do that. In my style of fighting, a bind is something that happens when my opponent has parried (or I parry my opponent) and I did not hit him so my first attempt already has failed. When I'm in the bind then I have all these wonderful techniques from the krieg but at first I will try to avoid that.

On the question on how I would handle someone that always tries to bind, well first I would not give him that chance, with a vom tag, or alber. He will have to get into striking distance before he can do anything. From there I would certainly try a Krumphau to his hands (or his blade if his hands are out of reach). Another option is a really hard zornhau to the blade (I know I'm contradicting myself) followed by a stich or a duplieren. Also a schielhau will work good against this technique, since this will naturally set the other one's blade aside. Or if your opponent moves as slow as the spaniards, then I would go to a hangen and switch my point aggressively from side to side, built up momentum and rush in on the side where there is an opening.

This is just my opinion and it's as always easier said then done.

[ericbryanwiggins]

Thanks all for your comments and opinions.

I think a main factor is that people train almost exclusively with a select group of people in their club. It's unavoidable, but when everyone in a group (whether it's the spanish club, mine, etc) is learning from the same instructor, and practicing against the same opponents, it will lead to certain trends that everyone in a group follows

I think this probably explains what I'm seeing. I imagine that if a high-impact "striker" goes up against a low-impact "binder," the bouts would look much different from like fighter vs like fighter. I just wanted to make sure these were maybe opposite ends of the same spectrum and not me overlooking some alternative, overall approach to the art.

Eric

[Jake Norwood]

I think this probably explains what I'm seeing. I imagine that if a high-impact "striker" goes up against a low-impact "binder," the bouts would look much different from like fighter vs like fighter. I just wanted to make sure these were maybe opposite ends of the same spectrum and not me overlooking some alternative, overall approach to the art.

Eric

And this is precisely why tournaments are so damn cool. I've been to a lot of big events over the years, and generally when it's freeplay only you see one of two things:

a) People only fight folks with similar styles, because they're friends or have seen the fighting online and think that so-and-so would be "fun" to fence with...not realizing that the reason that fighter looks "fun" is because their movements are somehow familiar.

b) People seek out fighters who are different, but the fights are gentlem, playful affairs. They're wonderful learning experiences, but they aren't truly pitting one approach against another...they're two approaches experimenting with each other. Not the same thing!

In tourneys, though...you're really seeing two people with wildly different styles really, really trying to outdo each other, in public, and unplanned. That's part of why tourney fighting, historically, hasn't looked that good. There's no unspoken choreography happening as with almost all fighting in the a-and-b scenarios above.

My 2c.

Jake

[Jeffrey Hull]

Hopefully of some relevance:

Is this all just really about Vor-Indes-Nach?

My apology if everybody is weary of fencing tactics getting reduced to that yet again.

For some reason I felt the irrational urge to mention that when Richard spoke of "measure" et.al.

[Francesco Lanza]

A simple consideration should be made by drawing a parallel with boxing. There are out boxers, in fighters, brawlers, counter punchers, and this is just using fists and gloves and the human body. We are adding the complexity layer of a longsword, which is a very complex tool to use indeed, so why should longsword fighting be any less complex, and what would be the point to de-legitimize binding or avoiding the bind like it was some sort of plague, or billing a strong zufechten fighter as suicidal, like I read somewhere?

You can focus on either or fight from either successfully and make a well rounded fencer who can deal with both well but I do not believe a style should be considered "superior" or "wrong". They are just skills to mix-up, imho, and fatefully in each stage of your developement as a fencer you will always have more focus on one to the partial detriment for the other

[Jesse Eaton]

Is it just me, or is there a really big obvious way to settle this point...What we really want here and is going on, though is unstated as of yet, is we really want to see Carlos Negredo square of with Axel Peterson. Whether it is in a martial challenge or tournament scenario, this is the big question. Can Carlos force Axel slow down and fight his way or will Axel force Carlos on the defensive with a fast and furious offense.

It might just be me, but I know I'd love to see this on video! Any one else wondering this same thing?

[keith cotter-reilly]

Is it just me, or is there a really big obvious way to settle this point...What we really want here and is going on, though is unstated as of yet, is we really want to see Carlos Negredo square of with Axel Peterson. Whether it is in a martial challenge or tournament scenario, this is the big question. Can Carlos force Axel slow down and fight his way or will Axel force Carlos on the defensive with a fast and furious offense.

It might just be me, but I know I'd love to see this on video! Any one else wondering this same thing?

I second that sentiment!! Would be interesting to see for sure.

[Marcos Ariño]

Is it just me, or is there a really big obvious way to settle this point...What we really want here and is going on, though is unstated as of yet, is we really want to see Carlos Negredo square of with Axel Peterson. Whether it is in a martial challenge or tournament scenario, this is the big question. Can Carlos force Axel slow down and fight his way or will Axel force Carlos on the defensive with a fast and furious offense.

It might just be me, but I know I'd love to see this on video! Any one else wondering this same thing?

I think that would be a most interesting exchange.