Longsword "Approaches"

[Francesco Lanza]

Is it just me, or is there a really big obvious way to settle this point...What we really want here and is going on, though is unstated as of yet, is we really want to see Carlos Negredo square of with Axel Peterson. Whether it is in a martial challenge or tournament scenario, this is the big question. Can Carlos force Axel slow down and fight his way or will Axel force Carlos on the defensive with a fast and furious offense.

It might just be me, but I know I'd love to see this on video! Any one else wondering this same thing?

I'm afraid that it would tell far more about the fencers than their styles, as often is the case. Besides, as intelligent human beings they are not as limited and elemental in their styles as this thread would wish for, and I am completely sure they have a lot of different tools up their sleeves. But hey, this is cool: maybe we can start to get some understanding about how to match up styles and strategies this way - again, a lot like what happens in boxing. It's always a matter of rock-paper-scissors, but up to this point I have serious difficulty to understand which is paper and which is rock. Or lizard, or Spock.

[Joey Nitti]

A simple consideration should be made by drawing a parallel with boxing. There are out boxers, in fighters, brawlers, counter punchers, and this is just using fists and gloves and the human body. We are adding the complexity layer of a longsword

I think this is spot on. You could even look at UFC (which also adds more layers of complexity over boxing): you have strikers, kickboxers, brawlers, grapplers, ground-fighters, etc.

[Jesse Eaton]

Joey,

The problem with listing MMA as a model is that MMA had to create rules to keep the fights interesting. Otherwise it was complete domination by the ground game. Look at UFC 1-4. The Gracie clan dominated the rule less matches. It was also very boring, so it had to change for that reason too, but the early matches showed the weakness inherent infighting styles that had no ground game. I agree that there is a certain amount of Rock, Paper, Scissors, and of course Lizard and Spock are there too, but to what extent? We really won't know until we see it.

[keith cotter-reilly]

Joey,

The problem with listing MMA as a model is that MMA had to create rules to keep the fights interesting. Otherwise it was complete domination by the ground game. Look at UFC 1-4. The Gracie clan dominated the rule less matches. It was also very boring, so it had to change for that reason too, but the early matches showed the weakness inherent infighting styles that had no ground game. I agree that there is a certain amount of Rock, Paper, Scissors, and of course Lizard and Spock are there too, but to what extent? We really won't know until we see it.

This is incorrect. The rules were changed not because of the Gracie domination ( which was the plan in the first place as they knew they would win from competing in Brazil and Japan), but rather to gain regulation and return to PPV. The domination of the BJJ guys started to fade with the advent of wrestlers who crossed trained with submissions which led to a "ground and pound" era. This era ended with the rise of Strikers who knew how to defend takedowns, the "sprawl and brawl" era. Which led to the modern era of fighters who can do a little of everything very well. Fighters like Jon Jones, Anderson Silva, George St. Pierre, etc. have superior striking, wrestling and submissions. This is not due to the rules, but rather to the game changing with time and experience. The evolution of MMA is getting very interesting, more so in the lighter weight categories.

I'm afraid that it would tell far more about the fencers than their styles, as often is the case. Besides, as intelligent human beings they are not as limited and elemental in their styles as this thread would wish for, and I am completely sure they have a lot of different tools up their sleeves. But hey, this is cool: maybe we can start to get some understanding about how to match up styles and strategies this way - again, a lot like what happens in boxing. It's always a matter of rock-paper-scissors, but up to this point I have serious difficulty to understand which is paper and which is rock. Or lizard, or Spock.

This is true. But we would still gain insight into their respective styles as they would rely on it. But internal fortitude often has a more defining factor at that level of ability. Still getting them to do a few friendly bouts would be interesting, if only to see two top people move.

[Davy Van Elst]

I wonder how much of this choice of fighting style comes from the physical abbilities of the fighters.
For example I know I am a small person with little physical power but I'm rather quick so I will often try to use my speed to change my line of attack and thus I will not fight much from a bind where I sometimes lack the force to let that go to my advantage. I know that with correct winden and strong vs. weak of the sword, that this shouldn't matter but I think everyone knows that there is a difference between theorie and praxis.
The thing I'm saying is that your fighting style is a combination of what you learn inside your club and your physical abbilities or am I taking this too far?

[Jesse Eaton]

Davy,

I think that's definitely true, though the case I mentioned was picked for both style (near opposites) and similar level of fitness and training. Heavier and stronger guys favor the close bind, light quick guys favor zufechten and mid to long range binds (binds that occur from the bridge to the tip of the weak). Modify this for martial school and practice, and you get any given fighters tactical preference, with some rare exceptions. I have a friend that is on the lighter and smaller side but he favors close binds and grappling, he just happens to have a talent for it.

[W.T.Heinz]

Joey,

The problem with listing MMA as a model is that MMA had to create rules to keep the fights interesting. Otherwise it was complete domination by the ground game. Look at UFC 1-4. The Gracie clan dominated the rule less matches. It was also very boring, so it had to change for that reason too, but the early matches showed the weakness inherent infighting styles that had no ground game. I agree that there is a certain amount of Rock, Paper, Scissors, and of course Lizard and Spock are there too, but to what extent? We really won't know until we see it.

This is incorrect. The rules were changed not because of the Gracie domination ( which was the plan in the first place as they knew they would win from competing in Brazil and Japan), but rather to gain regulation and return to PPV. The domination of the BJJ guys started to fade with the advent of wrestlers who crossed trained with submissions which led to a "ground and pound" era. This era ended with the rise of Strikers who knew how to defend takedowns, the "sprawl and brawl" era. Which led to the modern era of fighters who can do a little of everything very well. Fighters like Jon Jones, Anderson Silva, George St. Pierre, etc. have superior striking, wrestling and submissions. This is not due to the rules, but rather to the game changing with time and experience. The evolution of MMA is getting very interesting, more so in the lighter weight categories.

I'm afraid that it would tell far more about the fencers than their styles, as often is the case. Besides, as intelligent human beings they are not as limited and elemental in their styles as this thread would wish for, and I am completely sure they have a lot of different tools up their sleeves. But hey, this is cool: maybe we can start to get some understanding about how to match up styles and strategies this way - again, a lot like what happens in boxing. It's always a matter of rock-paper-scissors, but up to this point I have serious difficulty to understand which is paper and which is rock. Or lizard, or Spock.

This is true. But we would still gain insight into their respective styles as they would rely on it. But internal fortitude often has a more defining factor at that level of ability. Still getting them to do a few friendly bouts would be interesting, if only to see two top people move.

Keith thank you for correcting that.

FA really highlighted some differences in style and my own personal weakness this weekend. I am predominantly and aggressor seeking the vor through Liechtenauer techniques, and that worked to my advantage is some fights. However, when I tried to deliberately play a defensive game, or found myself on the defensive I found some serious gaps in my training. This is something that I've been aware of for awhile since I am the primary aggressor in Iron Crown, but it was really brought into sharp focus at FA. I am right now designing some drills to address those weakness, but I will always primarily be an aggressor in longsword. Strangely in grappling I am primarily a counter-player, which is a weakness that I am trying to address there.

One of my favorite things is to see how others and myself adapt to heretofore unencountered and unexpected styles, strategies and tactics. Tournaments definitely make salient those skills that have become reflexive, and it is very interesting and rewarding to adapt in the moment with something new as the situation demands. Its also very edifying to become cognizant of what you should have done. Sometimes this is immediately apparent as in "shit I should have blocked that more towards the middle," sometimes it occurs days, weeks, months later.

[Jesse Eaton]

W.T. Heinz,

I was just having the same conversation with Myles Cupp. I'm looking to bring more fighters from other groups to KRON because the more varied opponents you have the more you can adapt. Our primary aggressor is Carlo A., and he is very aggressive, but he can't make every practice and there are many ways to be aggressive. We'd really like to get together with the Phoenix guys, both schools would really benefit for the same reason and especially because they do Fiore and we do KdF. In another art/sport form I used to do, we went to other groups and fought semi-regularly. It was very educational and made both groups stronger. Maybe some thing for you to look into as well?

[JohnPatterson]

I would like to meet up with all the KdF folks I can. I learned a lot form the Meyer free fighters at Dixie Kreig. Locally we also have the tattershall guys, La Fratellanza della Spada and the rib busting Side sword group Richard started with.

[Jesse Eaton]

John,

"rib busting Side sword group"?