Bouting with Dussack

[David A. Rowe]

Hah! I was planning on making this very post, or something similar!

I very much agree with the posts here. On one hand, I think the PHA dussacks are great for encouraging and building athleticism and the use of distance and timing; on the other hand, because of the floppiness, many of the techniques we see in the sources are simply impossible or will end up with you getting hit or doubling. This lends itself to cut/countercut/void style of fencing we see, with little to no handwork.

The suggestion about the PHA cutlass trainers is one that I am going to be trying out myself; I recently had the chance to bout dussack using their synthetic baskethilt trainers, and I was very pleased with the fact that I could actually parry and perform actions on the blade. Because of that, I will be experimenting with the synthetic cutlass trainers, as I think they might prove even better.

I'm also glad to see that many people are on the same page here; I would love to see the level of technique and understanding of the dussack rise in the community, and I think that having a trainer more suitable for period technique is necessary to achieve that.

[Keith P. Myers]

I've also had success with making trainers from rigid plastic composites as of late . Jason Taylor had me make him a pair of Messers this way based off the prototype dussaks made in this fashion . What overall length are you typically using ? As a trainer I've used lengths from 30-40" in the past am curious to see what seems to be the general consensus on the matter

Ah! I got to handle Jason's Messers at FA! Very nicely done! They were too short, but Jason said that was on purpose. But to bring them out to full "dussack length" would probably make them pretty hard hitters as well! I think an historic dussack length was at least 30 inches overall.

[Keith P. Myers]

Single sticks are ridged, but they bounce, they're light, and thus they behave like a stick, and not a sword.

---Well, the PHA leather dussacks don't behave anything like a sword either. And I think I would take "bounce" over "flop" and "collapse."

I think maybe if technique is an issue, tournaments should be judged on who has the best technique, and not who hit who.

---I don't think that will ever happen on in the larger public tournaments because its just too subjective.


The synthetic cutlasses would also work.
http://www.woodenswords.com/WMA/Synthetic_cutlass.htm

---I've considered those as well, but have never handled one so I'm not sure what the weight is like. Good possibility though! And they aren't going to have a danger of breaking like the singlesticks would. But I'd want to see them in action before committing to them.

The suggestion about the PHA cutlass trainers is one that I am going to be trying out myself; I recently had the chance to bout dussack using their synthetic baskethilt trainers, and I was very pleased with the fact that I could actually parry and perform actions on the blade. Because of that, I will be experimenting with the synthetic cutlass trainers, as I think they might prove even better.

---Do you have any of them yet? 22 inches plus the hilt sounds like it would be pretty close to "dussack size." But I think I would want them with the Knightshop baskethilt and not the leather cutlass/saber hilt.

[Jeremy Loose]

I think 30-36" seems to be the historic par for length with a few oddball exceptions ,as far as Jason's I'm glad people liked them .The dussaks are a bit longer Jason wanted something to fit between the earlier langemesser and later Messer/ knife works so the length was a compromise between the two . Adding a few inches to length with that blade width doesn't add much oomph to the hit especially with a more dussak curved blade . I haven't played with the cutlass trainers either so j cant comment there but am curious .

[Jesse Eaton]

Keith,

I'm really glad you brought up this topic. I'd love to get more people into it too. I learned Dusak with the same crowd Jeremy did, just at a different time.

I dislike the leather dusak for the same reasons mentioned. I've been using weighted and basket hilt shinai, but the bouncing problem kills it for historical fighting.

I also think Jeremy's dusak wasters are the best, we've already been talking about a business opportunity there. Honestly, there's nothing Jeremy can't make, except items in volume. For that reason, the synthetic basket hilts would be better. The only thing lacking, that I see is the slickness of the blades. Perhaps what we need is the option or requirement that, for tournament purposes, the blades be sanded to increase the friction in the bind? Purple heart sells both, I don't think they'll mind the change too much, especially if we can get the popularity and frequency of Dusak tournaments up...

[Mike Ruhala]

I think it's important to remember that many historical dusacks were 100% wooden and would have experienced bounce just like a singlestick. It was also very common for singlesticks to have blades that were shaped like actual blades, at least the ones meant for sword training. Off the shelf modern singlesticks seem to mostly have the round blades of the "sport" singlesticks but they'd still work for us till something better comes along.

As far as "something better" goes I think synthetic would be the way to go, it wouldn't bounce or break into sharp splinters and could be molded in one piece. From the 17th century on it seems that dusacks lost their "nagel" but considering all the trouble we have with hand protection I'd very much like to retain it.

Another point to keep in mind is that dusack will hurt just like singlestick hurt. These guys kept score by inflicting bleeding head wounds on eachother and in the case of the singlestick they recognized that their "trainer" was a self defense weapon in its own right. While I think we could get by just fine if we only exercise a little restraint the bottom line for me is I'd rather take some bruises than compromise the art with a floppy boffer.

[Jesse Eaton]

Mike,

I agree with "I'd rather take some bruises than compromise the art with a floppy boffer", but I draw the line at broken bones and nerve damage...that would stop me from being able to practice

[Mike Ruhala]

Yup, I can't argue with that! You have to balance things like gear, mindset and self control to craft an effective training program.

[Jeremy Loose]

Right there with the both of you ive got my share of scars and broken bones . But i think its part of the art to a certain degree,we'll be able to mitigate some injury but not all its not like were playing with dollies .

[Jeremy S.]

The synthetic cutlasses would also work.
http://www.woodenswords.com/WMA/Synthetic_cutlass.htm

---Do you have any of them yet? 22 inches plus the hilt sounds like it would be pretty close to "dussack size." But I think I would want them with the Knightshop baskethilt and not the leather cutlass/saber hilt.

Christian says just order the baskethilt and request the 22" cutlass blade in the 'comments' section. I think my school is going to pick up a few pair in the near future.