Meyer Rappier help

[Richard Marsden]

Today's Work!

No re-created picture I'm afraid. The Girl Scouts of America...thousands of them...spilled into the park and made filming and any photo work difficult. We didn't even film our drill, but will soon.

Drill 1 = Shielhau. Easy. We get that one.

Drill 2 = When the opponent's sword is low, deliver a cut to one side of their face then another cut to the other side. THIS isn't as easy as it sounds. We are a little unsure on how to use the footwork. Meyer says this has to be done fast, so we want to make the cut, not pull it, but also not let the sword take too long to perform the second cut.

When the sword of the foe is high, lower the body and cut the torso, first from one direction then the next. (Same issues as above)
Sugar-cakes if someone films this before us correctly and thus save us time!

Sparring Videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REDgwwqN0Wk
Richard first up with Kyle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuY8gEMv_xE
Tony first up with Kyle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwoCCVCzdPQ
John

[Richard Marsden]

Our latest

Drill = False-edge cut to the opponent's left ear. When they go to parry, perform a cut to their body.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa_TZ6qbHzo

Drill = Thrust, when the opponent parries, perform a cut to their body.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke-xmyAn2Dc

Sparring, note people using elements learned in not only the above drills, but prior drills as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YamUH-91QH4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIYvD_4CUC0
John and Tony

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVhNpr2OmVw
Kyle and Tony

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE1GSmZjsfs
Kyle and Richard

[Keith P. Myers]

Our latest

Drill = False-edge cut to the opponent's left ear. When they go to parry, perform a cut to their body.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa_TZ6qbHzo

Drill = Thrust, when the opponent parries, perform a cut to their body.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke-xmyAn2Dc

The drilling looks good! That step is what I believe Meyer and Mair are referring to when they say to "step in the triangle" or refer to a "triangle step." But Richard, you seem to be the only one that is making it work. I think this is because you also seem to be the only one that is starting to use that deeper forward-weighted stance that Meyer uses. When you step off-line with the lead foot, the rear foot is not going to swing around naturally unless the majority of your weight is on the lead leg. You actually need to pivot on your lead hip so that the rear leg swinging into place adds power to the cut.

[Richard Marsden]

It's been difficult! We have tons of video of us doing the drills wrong with a pass. It's as if learned Italian 17th century rapier before and.... hey, wait!

I think we'll get video of us practicing that triangle step and see what you think. It is the most unusual aspect of Meyer for us and the part we really need to get right.

We finished Meyer's section on 'cuts' and are moving onto 'thrusts' next.

As always, I'm looking for others who spar with this system, to see what 'right' or 'more right' looks like.

[JohnPatterson]

I think that I executed the second drill in the first and last play of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YamUH-91QH4

[Richard Marsden]

Ok, the last of the cutting drills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Hc9E5uA1k
Round Stroke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5gggO0mvvU
Double Round Stroke (A multi-action drill with three cuts in all)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHB4xrbQaJI
Neck Cut

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Go0_HKvqZk
Hand Cut (Someone goes low, you cut their hand.)


More Experimentation with footwork

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ2UIL6_B_0
Advance, Advance, Retreat, Retreat, Spring Left, Spring Right, Backflip. (We edited out the backflip). We have a new one in our video, Ian. Welcome aboard Ian.

[Steven Reich]

More Experimentation with footwork

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ2UIL6_B_0
Advance, Advance, Retreat, Retreat, Spring Left, Spring Right, Backflip. (We edited out the backflip). We have a new one in our video, Ian. Welcome aboard Ian.

Although I'm not sure how it fits into Meyer's rapier, one step you want to experiment with is the Chasing Step which is where you bring your rear foot up near your front foot and then step forward with your front foot. The reason why I suggest this is threefold: 1. Meyer uses it in some of his dussack drills (so its use is at least implied in his dussack techniques, if not his rappier techniques as well), 2. it is a primary step in 16th century Italian swordsmanship and Meyer talks about the rappier being borrowed from the Italians, and finally 3. it is a great way to cover about the same distance as a passing step while keeping your same foot forward at the end as you started.

Steve

[Richard Marsden]

Thanks Steve!

Here is what I know about Meyer Rappier footwork

Footwork
Simple Step: Lead foot remains leading.
Passing Step: rear foot becomes leading. (Used usually with the off-hand grabbing the opponent)
In rappier, most steps are Simple.

Specifics

Advance = Lead foot shifts forward, rear foot follows.
Retreat =Lead foot moves back, rear foot follows.

Triangle Step= Lead foot moves forward and drifts right or left. The rear foot follows to align the body to the opponent.
Double Triangle = Two Triangle steps done, one after the other.
False Step or Reverse Triangle = Rear foot quickly moves right or left, lead foot follows to align the body.
Lunge = A deep step to deliver a thrust.
Pass Forward = Rear foot moves to become the lead, combined with use of the off-hand.

I've not come across the chasing step yet, but sure I will. I'll keep an eye for it, and if it can do what passing does, but keep the lead foot the same way, all the better.

Thanks much for taking to the time to watch and comment!

[Keith P. Myers]

Hey Richard!

Once again, keep up the good work!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Hc9E5uA1k
Round Stroke

This one really should be a continuous motion that starts in Ochs in one side or the other and ends in the same spot from which it started. One "Round Strike" actually hits twice....or at least potentially hits twice. That's what makes it "Round." Just doing a backhand strike and then withdrawing the weapon and stepping back isn't "round." The purpose of making it "round" is to build up momentum and make the strike more powerful. When you "double" the strike, it potentially hits 3 times and ends up in the Ochs position on the side opposite of where it started.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHB4xrbQaJI
Neck Cut

Of course the neck cut is simply any cut aimed at the neck. But of note here is that in describing this cut Meyer sets it up with a Krumphaw (even though he doesn't name the Krumphaw). So that initial action should decisively strike over the opponent's blade and "smother" it. The idea with the Krumphaw is that when used properly the opponent has no options and you have him! It works the same way with the Longsword. From the Krumphaw the Halshaw is a fast and powerful draw cut through the throat directly from the Krump position.


More Experimentation with footwork
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ2UIL6_B_0

I'm not convinced that Meyer used that "step-slide" as is seen in sport fencing. It doesn't really seem to be part of the Bolognese tradition, and we know Meyer's Sidesword has an Italian influence as Steve mentioned. So everywhere you see this "step-slide" I would do the "gather step" or what Steve referred to as a "Chasing step."

In paragragh 1.24R: Meyer notes 3 chief forms of stepping:

1. back and forward, toward and away from the opponent
It is unclear whether he means a passing step, a gather step, or both. One could put the the step-slide in here as well. But for me, the gather step just works better and is in tune with what the Bolognese Masters taught.

2. to the sides, described by the triangle:
“stand in a straight line with your right foot before your opponent and step with your left behind your right toward his left, this is the single. The other is a double step: step as before with your right foot toward his left, follow then with your left behind the right toward his left somewhat to the side, and then thirdly with the right again to his left.”

3. the broken or stolen steps, which are done thus: “act as if you intend to step forward with the one foot, and before you set it down, step backwards with it behind the other foot. Since these properly belong to the rapier, I will save it for there.”

Meyer goes on to say (Forgeng translation):
“Some might here be astonished, and particularly those who were inexperienced in combat, that I offer instruction about stepping; they might believe that nothing much depends on how one steps, or even if something depended on it, that ‘The marketplace will teach it to you well enough’ (as the saying goes). But so much depends on this, that as experience shows, all combat happens vainly, no matter how artful it is, if the steps for it are not executed correctly. Therefore the combat masters of old who were very learned and experienced in this, stated in their twelve rules: ‘Whoever first steps after the cuts should not rejoice much of his skill’.”

Here Meyer emphasizes the importance of foot work and his comments reflect the fact that it is seldom discussed in prior written works. Yet he himself has relatively little to say about it and does not describe his stepping methods in very much detail at all. Its a bit frustrating!

I should also point out that some other footwork does show up in his Sidesword chapter that he didn't mention previously. One is the leg slip, which you showed as part of the "hand cut." The other is what Meyer called a "Broad Step." I think this is essentially the same thing as the "accrescimento" from the Bolognese method. Its not really a "lunge" proper, but was likely the precursor to it.

[Steven Reich]

I'm not convinced that Meyer used that "step-slide" as is seen in sport fencing. It doesn't really seem to be part of the Bolognese tradition, and we know Meyer's Sidesword has an Italian influence as Steve mentioned. So everywhere you see this "step-slide" I would do the "gather step" or what Steve referred to as a "Chasing step."

It isn't just the Bolognese tradition; when we look at 16th century Italian swordsmanship, the Chasing Step is a primary step used by Altoni, Di Grassi, and even Agrippa. It is the fundamental way to advance into measure and the standard way of attacking while keeping the same foot forward. The important point to understand is the the Advancing Step (what I call the "fencing step" or what Keith calls the "step-slide") is not the same foot forward analogue of the Passing Step since it only covers half the distance of the Passing Step (as is true for an Accrescimento as opposed to a Passing Step). Thus, if you are in range to deliver a cut with the correct part of your blade with an Accrescimento or Advancing Step, you are inside of the range to do so (to the same target) with a Passing Step. Conversely, if you are in range to deliver a cut with the correct part of your blade with a Passing Step, you can only deliver a cut (to the same target) with the tip of your blade. Worse, if you are in range to deliver a cut to the opponent's head with the correct part of your blade and you are in a hand-forward guard (such as Iron Gate), you are likely close to the range where your opponent can hit you in the sword-hand with little or no step.

Incidentally, the reason why I refer to it as a Chasing Step is because in addition to it being closer what the Italians call it, I needed a name to refer to the step where one foot comes close to the other (i.e. the first half of the Chasing Step), which is what I call the Gathering Step.

Steve