HEMA Journeyman Porgrams

[Keith P. Myers]

What we are really trying to do is set up a somewhat more formal system, based as much as possible on the historical prescedent, for younger people who are learning HEMA and may have more ability to move around. For example, University students taking a gap year. Some may even be able to get college credit for this kind of training.

I think actually spending a few days or a few weeks with another group far away is an excellent way to learn fencing, and also to grow as a person. Going on the road like this for a year would I think undoubtedly be a life-changing growth experience.

J

Sounds kind of like a Mormon Mission. Are suits and bicycles required? All kidding aside...this is a great idea!

[Jean Chandler]

Honestly I think there is a corollary. The Mormons may have a Medieval secret to their success as a religion...

J

[Jess Rozek]

Okay, now I've read the wikipedia article on journeymen. So if you're trying to set it up according to historical precedents, then what is the end result? If the journeyman isn't a student (an apprentice) then, at the end of their wandering, will the journeyman be "certified" to teach? What precedent will that set if this were set in motion? For instance; what if there are instructors or senior student instructors that simply can't roam around for however long? Will they be considered "as good as" those who have?

Obviously I'm thinking waaay down the road here, but those are just some questions that'd I'd see popping up around this idea. I love the idea of visiting others and learning from them, but what happens when travelling to others (presumably those far enough away for the person to need room and board) becomes the accepted ideal?

[Jean Chandler]

I don't frankly think that would be a bad thing necessarily.

But I doubt there will ever be a universal standard, let alone one requiring people do the Walz. There wasn't historically. Most Guilds in most towns did the tramping, but some didn't. There are many ways to learn, and some groups don't like the idea of sharing information today. It was the same back then.

I think this will be one historical way to learn more about fencing, one which we know did help some industries and probably fencers learn their crafts historically. How people decide to link it to reaching the status of an instructor or Master I think depends on the club, and (god forbid ) any certifying bodies out there, but historically, doing the Die Walz wasn't enough to become a Master. When your Walz was over (or when you had completed whatever period of work was required before applying) you had to apply to the local Guild in whatever town you decided to stay, and perform your Miesterstucke, your Masterpiece. In the case of fencing this is usually associated with the prize play I think, though the way that has been done in the modern HEMA movement isn't the same as it was historically. Regardless, it means some kind of objective test of skills, which I assume would also apply in some variation or other in the modern context. Today that might also include a written test possibly, maybe demonstration of techniques, who knows, test cutting? But probably also some fencing against very difficult opponents.

But I don't see our little journeymen system as being directly linked in any way to whether someone can be an instructor, either now or in the future. I believe that will always be up to the individual club, study group, school, or guild.



By the way, here is a funny little video on Journeymen (in German) I apologize in advance for the ridiculous Euro-underwear! It does kind of explain the whole thing in simple enough form that you can follow it without speaking German

http://vimeo.com/32566254

I don't know if / when we'll implement the earring and the splitzoaer or whatever they call it! But who knows... maybe for too many double-hits?

J

[Jeremiah Smith]

Yay

this is exactly the sort of discussion I wanted to have.

here is what I think, I think that what SDANOLA are setting up is a wonderful precedent for what could, and in my opinion should, be a pre-requisite of an official rank of some sort. Now I won't tout out the big M word but it seems to me that someone who is dedicated enough to travel the world in search of their art deserves a similar title.

Here is the thing, I really feel that we could do a lot of this over Skype, or some similar program. I know the hemaa is trying to develop a distance learning program, and my thought is this. since all clubs train differently and many have different focuses, why couldn't we all sit down and decide what makes our clubs special. make a program for it (say 8 weeks) and have instruction via the internet to people who wanted to do this. Then at the end of it all have some sort of certification period where you fly out or drive out for the weekend and have that club give you a stamp that you are up to par.

I feel that many of the current longtimers have plenty of this under their belt already, but It seems to me that we should really recognize this in some way. Maybe something as simple as a fun thing to add on to peoples Sig on the internet, or a patch to put on your jacket. but I think that the fact you were willing to be the student at several other schools and passed their grades would be something of note.

that was my line of thinking anyhow, even if its a silly title I think it would be fun

[Keith P. Myers]

The title could simply be "HEMA Journeyman." It would be indicative of someone that went on a "journey" to other places to learn more about the art. Maybe after going to a minimum of something like 2 or 3 approved places the person would be qualified to use the title or wear the patch or whatever.

[Jeremiah Smith]

The title could simply be "HEMA Journeyman." It would be indicative of someone that went on a "journey" to other places to learn more about the art. Maybe after going to a minimum of something like 2 or 3 approved places the person would be qualified to use the title or wear the patch or whatever.

yeah I like that

[Jean Chandler]

This is one of the things we need to figure out. I like the idea of a patch or something when you are on the journey, or have taken at least one journey... we would have to decide what the standard requirement would be and what if anything would constitute completing the program. Visiting ten groups? Something like that?

J

[ericbryanwiggins]

I really feel that we could do a lot of this over Skype, or some similar program. I know the hemaa is trying to develop a distance learning program, and my thought is this. since all clubs train differently and many have different focuses, why couldn't we all sit down and decide what makes our clubs special. make a program for it (say 8 weeks) and have instruction via the internet to people who wanted to do this. Then at the end of it all have some sort of certification period where you fly out or drive out for the weekend and have that club give you a stamp that you are up to par.

I think that would certainly work from the standpoint of "learning different HEMA stuff." And while I think the Skype thing is something the HEMA community should explore, I think the Journey is about a lot more than just "learning different HEMA stuff."

To me, the whole point is to get you out of your home, your comfortable place, and get you immersed in other cultures and situations - whether that be something as simple as a different "club culture" or literally a whole other country's culture. And honestly, you don't get that deeper immersion during training. You get it in the evenings, after practice, when you're cooking supper or when you're kicked back having a beer, or on the day one of the local members takes you out sight-seeing. You're not only getting to see the way they do their HEMA, you're getting to see the way they live their life, and you're building personal bonds with other members of the HEMA community. When you Skype, you miss out on the "brotherhood and fraternity" part, in my opinion.

As for a "title," I think I like the idea of "HEMA Journeyman" and getting a patch for it, as Keith suggests.

Oh yeah, and by your Journey Books from me.

[Jess Rozek]

Ooh a patch would be really nice and convenient. Reminds of Girl/Boy Scouts and patches. You could have the HEMA Alliance patch and then have a Journeyman patch under it.

I can see pros and cons to both styles - the Skype format would be more like a college online class - you get the instruction and then pass in a paper at the end to prove your skills. In this case, you get taught over Skype and then show up to "prove" yourself. This would be great for learning about the different ways people teach and the different styles. It's also cheaper. But, like Eric said, you miss out on actually feeling like you're a part of the community.

The other way - travelling to and living locally with another group would provide the "full" Journeyman experience I think. And you'd get to foster deeper relationships between the groups. However, this method is far more time and money consuming than the previous one. Could there be a mix of the two? Do a Skype thing for a week or two and then show up at the club and stay for a week or two? You could get the best of both worlds that way...