Giratas: Who does them/can do them?

[Myles Cupp]

So I decided to browse Youtube for some rapier sparring videos and looked at a variety of things from the SCA, some other HEMA groups and my own sparring videos again.

Something I noticed is the absence of giratas like those we see drawn in the manuals. I am curious as to why this is and if it's a case of me simply not finding the videos or if the rapier community is missing something by not liberally employing turns of the body to void incoming blades.

Is it a psychological issue? That we much prefer to parry an incoming attack than trust our body to just barely turn out of the way?

In my own sparring, I execute a few things I might call a girata but I am still not wholly satisfied with them.
For example, consider the hit at 7:40 in this video. My opponent tries a low pass of second but I lean forward and take a small step to void without parrying:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SULAqaUy ... CCB02B201B

So, how do folks feel about giratas and voiding in general?

[Sean Karp]

As a man with tiny tiny fencing experience I must ask: If you are right handed and do a right hand lead and do a Girata to the right can this lead to good power generation?

If I am understanding this term right it is done in EMA (esp Kung Fu). One can do this move with a punch in the same way. With the right foot making the move you can deliver a good stout fist or elbow blow. With the left crossing the line of the right it gives you a less powerful blow with good rotational momentum that lends itself to striking the head/neck, knee, crotch, or kidneys/ short ribs.

Or am I wrong in my understanding of what a 'Girata' is?

[mackenzie cosens]

Here is a link to Devon Boorman of Academie Duello giving an intro to Giratas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqznPHww50A

Could it be that people don't drill it enough to employ it?

[Myles Cupp]

I think you might be misunderstanding it. A girata, as I've read in the source material, is an action done to turn one's body out of the way of an incoming blade instead of parrying it.

Observe these illustrations:
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Fabris/b ... 011062.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Fabris/b ... 011063.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Fabris/b ... 011078.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Fabris/b ... 011077.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Fabris/b ... 012079.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Fabris/b ... 011049.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Fabris/b ... 011048.jpg

This is all from a single manual (and not even a comprehensive listing of every action we could classify as a girata)! I haven't even touched on Agrippa or Capoferro who also make judicious uses of voiding with the body.

Maybe I'm ignorant but I just don't see a lot of these actions in online sparring videos.

[Myles Cupp]

And Mackenzie, that link is awesome! And only a few days old as well! I shall have to devour these after work today.

[Sean Karp]

No, I had it right in my head.

I do those moves in unarmed combat, and I know they are used in the Shao Lin & Wing Chun systems, but the nature of the combat makes for a slightly different finish.

But I have never used them in fencing and I want to!

However, does the Girata lend itself to a higher level of inherent power generation?

[zarlor]

I've done it a ton and have known quite a few folks doing SCA Rapier who picked up doing it a good bit (at least back in the '90s when I was doing it in the SCA, we haven't done quite so much rapier these days but the guys are getting moee interested in it.) I don't know about videos for it, though, but I haven't really looked.

However, to respond to Sean's question... power generation for the thrust is not nearly as important as it would be for the cut. (Try some test thrusting with a sharp sometime and you'll see what I mean... it takes almost no power at all to thrust through something like a pig carcass, tatami mat, pig with several layers of clothing over it, a pork loin still in plastic packaging, etc...) It's almost ridiculous how little pressure is needed assuming something less than chain armor, although I haven't really tried against a well padded gambeson. So I'm not exactly sure what you mean by power generation here. Any of those steps can very easily drive enough power in the thrust. One caveat for you, if you're doing SCA Heavy Weapons then it's an interesting technique but, in my humble experience, you need to hit a guy hard enough to practically break a rib with a thrust before he'll acknowledge it, so there may be some difficulty with that much power generation if that's where you intended to use it. Besides, I'd say it's primarily a technique seen more often in things like rapier and smallsword manuals (although voids are still common, mind you, just not necessarily of the kind in that video from what I've seen). If you want to get more power out of it, though, I'd just recommend practicing the footwork such that you power from rotating your hip (assuming right handed with a step to the right) out to the right, essentially the opposite rotation you would normally use to generate power from that side, if you understand my meaning, so the power can move up through the arm to power the punta roverso.

[Richard Marsden]

Let's see...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMjy8Mp5MmA
6:25 ... longsword.

Ok, on a serious note.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrgFNjucqyI
52 I try against John.
2:35 I try it offensively.
2:45 I try against John.
3:19 John tries offensively
3:32 sorta. It's more like an afterthought.
John defeats a bunch of attempts after that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeGLLSkhEJo
44 I try against Robert from the Chicago group.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n7oibkzhes
22 seconds with rapier and dagger

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtvXavEiHJ0
Randy gives it a try at 47 seconds against me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft7BjCzZp5o
I try against Randy at 2:34.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvLZZ69nA4
1:18 I try against John.
1:46 John tries against me.
2:57 I try a void on John.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwmsZeuhi9s
1:14 I try against Randy.

High School Kids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uZBoLPGcIU
4:45 I pull one off against a student.

If I dig around I think we have more at varying levels of success.

Chicago Group
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2PJEOzT9xk
I think at 19 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUD39Tq-ric
Phil from our cousin group La Fratelanza tries at 3:10.

My personal opinion

They work great! You go off line and you stab someone and if they are moving toward you, they provide some of the energy in the thrust. Not that it takes much to stab something as noted earlier.

Here are some drawbacks. If they see it coming they can do it back to you. I'll try to inquartata, John notes a 'tell' I have, and he feints, then inquartatas himself. I run onto his blade with much gusto. (Yes, yes, I try to not have a 'tell' or fake it.)

If the opponent is shy, you need to go get them and it's not as effective. I'm much happier when they stab, I void, and they get hit.

[Kevin Murakoshi]

So I use them, and I like them.

The reason I don't think we see them that often is because they're risky and don't get you a whole lot. Fabris has a lot of them, but both Capoferro and Giganti only devote one plate to them at all. Indeed, any attack that you could perform a girata against, you could counterattack in stresso tempo. Similarly, any attack that you could make with a girata, you could make with a lunge. Further, girata are risky: they take longer in absolute time than a counterattack (because of the body movement), move the back into striking range, and it's neigh impossible to parry a disengaged attack due to the body posture.

On the plus side, they look damn cool when you pull them off.

I'm going to mostly focus on the inquartata type girata (with the back foot), since that's what i'm most familiar with.

However, the reason I don't think you see them a lot in fencing is because they've got some pretty stringent prerequisites.
1) The opponent must be committed to an attack on that finishes on high inside line.
2) You must have a good enough 'read' of your opponent that you are sure that they will finish on the high inside line
3) Your opponent must be making an attack to deep target (body, head, front hip)
4) You must be able to make the girata in about the same amount of absolute time as your opponent takes to lunge in. (you must be fast)
5) Your opponent must not be suicidal.

If you don't have (1), well it's not a girata. (except for that one plate in fabris with the front foot...)
If you don't have (2), then there's about a 50/50 chance you'll get nailed in the back when you do it.
If your opponent makes a shallow attack (not 3), then it's easy for them to hit you as you turn your back.
(4) is kinda optional, you need to be able to get the arm out quickly (as in a stresso tempo counterattack), and you really want to get the body out of the way before they finish their lunge. However, you can form the opposition first, and take a bit longer for the foot movement. However, if you're significantly slower than your opponent, it's pretty easy for them to parry the girata before they get hit. (At which point you're kinda screwed anyway)

(5) however is pretty much they key. It's pretty easy to disengage as you see the girata forming and then create a double. If you know they're suicidal, then counterattacks in general are pretty scary, since they may just decide to hit you as you counterattack. This is why you don't see them a lot in the SCA. The combination of one touch bouts, and suicidal fencers can make it especially risky in the SCA.


In general, I find that I tend to use girata/inquartata type actions against newer fencers, or in situations where I have a very good read on the opponent's tempo. When I'm unsure of the tempo, I tend to get hit in the back.

[Richard Marsden]

Kevin don't you have video of you doing it? I thought I saw one somewhere?