Zornhau ort and the First Winden

[Jesse Eaton]

Dustin,

I'm sorry you feel I'm being disingenuous. I think that the swords are exaggerated and the positions are further apart than they would be, in order to show other aspects of the fight, like grip and hand position for instance.

But let's assume you are right, and the perspective is accurate and Right's cut was aimed so that the blade would impact at about 1/3 of the way down the blade onto Lefts head impacting at about eye level at the temple. Assuming the perspective is accurate, plate 2 is showing Rights strike to now ready to impact with Lefts hands. So, Left has stepped back and wound up to place his hand in the line of the strike? If Right is still moving forward or in mid cut, Left is about to get hit. And his wind has not protected him at all.

Let's keep with the view that the perspective is accurate and assume that Right is pulling back, as I suggested, that way Lefts hands are not threatened and Right is trying to pull back. His edge is still right on top of lefts right hand. Why not just slice Lefts hands as he pulls back?

I'm not sure how, assuming that the plate is accurate, to make sense of it?

[Dustin Reagan]

So, Left has stepped back and wound up to place his hand in the line of the strike? If Right is still moving forward or in mid cut, Left is about to get hit. And his wind has not protected him at all.

No, Right is not in mid-cut. As I said above:

Left has passed back, striking Right's sword with the Zornhau (as described in my post above). However, Right is firm against the sword, so instead of shooting the point long (as in the zornhau-ort), Left, Indes, winds into left ochs, pushing Right's sword *slightly* out of the centerline with Left's strong (as is appropriate when winding). Now Left is leaning in with the thrust from ochs. Right, as you say, *may* be taking a simple (non-passing) step backwards. However, this is fine, as Left can, Indes, chase Right with either a short lunge with Left's right leg, or a longer "springen" with a pass of his left leg.

Also, as I said above, If Left had stood still to Zornhau against Right's oberhau, he would have no need at all to pass forward with his right leg in the thrust from ochs (provided Right did a true Oberhau, and didn't purposefully cut short)...Right would be so close, and the zornhau-winden (done properly, Indes) so quick, that Right would not be able to open distance again in time. It's the whole "time of the hand" vs "time of the foot" thing that George Silver talks about. So, Left's left leg should be forward in the image, if this were the case.

[Jesse Eaton]

"Also, as I said above, If Left had stood still to Zornhau against Right's oberhau, he would have no need at all to pass forward with his right leg in the thrust from ochs (provided Right did a true Oberhau, and didn't purposefully cut short)...Right would be so close, and the zornhau-winden (done properly, Indes) so quick, that Right would not be able to open distance again in time. It's the whole "time of the hand" vs "time of the foot" thing that George Silver talks about. So, Left's left leg should be forward in the image, if this were the case." Agreed, if the perspective is accurate, then Left had to have passed back in order for the plate to make sense. What I don't understand is what, given your assumptions, is protecting Lefts hands? Left's sword is almost vertical and on the right of Right's sword. What is preventing Right from slicing through Left's right hand? The perspective, if accurate, has Right's blade literally on top of Left's right hand.

Carlo and I are teaching tonight. I got the video camera and a whole class of students to test it out. If it's not up tonight it will be tomorrow morning.

TBC

[Dustin Reagan]

Carlo and I are teaching tonight. I got the video camera and a whole class of students to test it out. If it's not up tonight it will be tomorrow morning.
TBC

Nice, look forward to seeing it.

[Jesse Eaton]

It pretty much worked the way I thought it would. It worked with a slight modification. I couldn't get the hand position to work, so I used a flat edge alignment instead of the vertical position shown. It works quite well that way. On the other hand, the step to the left, as per Colin Richards but with a shallower angle. This also got the desired effect.

There are a few mistakes in the video, but the essentials are there. If I had had more light I would have redone this one and put myself on the left...oh well here it is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liPiiVRH ... e=youtu.be

If this is unsatisfactory, I'm happy to do it again with any modifications you need. I'm planning on redoing it anyway.

I think the synthetics are a bit too short for doing Goliath plays, so next time I'll do it with steel blunts that are closer to the ones in the manual.

[Mark W]

HI Jesse,

I've got no real problem with what you're doing. Another footwork variant you might find useful is passing back by moving the rear foot offline first. This brings in the hips nicely and you still end up right foot forward. The only nitpick I would add is that it seems from the perspective of the camera that the point of the zornort isn't in presence as much as it should be, making you open for Durchwechseln. I can't be sure though. Just a thought.

Best regards,

-Mark

[Jesse Eaton]

Mark,

I'm not sure how I would have time to step with the rear foot offline before stepping back? But yes, I would have done the wind closer, but again, the closer I wind on my opponents blade the closer I would be to his face, which I was trying to avoid. If I had wound were it

What I liked about Dustin's version is that it was really easy to get my strong on the weak and take control of the opposing blade. What I didn't like is that it required my opponent to be over extended in the strike and it took longer to complete. But I'm going to do some drills with my Steel and try to get the movement for both of the winds down cleaner, I might just be moving a bit inefficiently. I intentionally did it as two separate movements, but I won't next time.

Looking over again this morning, I see an important detail from the manual I didn't get right. The right foot needs to be turned to the right in order to set up the closing techniques that follow up the wind.

[Mark W]

Hi Jesse,

It's easier to show than describe. It's well-shown in the messer DVD by Ochs. Basically, twist the hips to the left while lifting the right foot. This moves your core offline (or rather, your core moves offline and takes the foot with it) and pivot motion swings the front foot behind you. That's the best description I can give.

Best regards,

-Mark

[Dustin Reagan]

It pretty much worked the way I thought it would. It worked with a slight modification. I couldn't get the hand position to work, so I used a flat edge alignment instead of the vertical position shown. It works quite well that way. On the other hand, the step to the left, as per Colin Richards but with a shallower angle. This also got the desired effect.

There are a few mistakes in the video, but the essentials are there. If I had had more light I would have redone this one and put myself on the left...oh well here it is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liPiiVRH ... e=youtu.be

If this is unsatisfactory, I'm happy to do it again with any modifications you need. I'm planning on redoing it anyway.

I think the synthetics are a bit too short for doing Goliath plays, so next time I'll do it with steel blunts that are closer to the ones in the manual.

Good video, that's definitely a zornhau to winden! Constructive criticism: I agree with Mark, though, that your point ends a little too far offline after the Zornhau. Also, your opponent looks like he wasn't actually aiming for your opening...he switches part way through the strike to meet your blade (his edge alignment even seems to change part-way through his strike). Nice biomechanics, in general though.

[Dustin Reagan]

Here's my interpretation of Goliath's Zornhau-Ort:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb6kvjia6A4&feature=plcp

Note my out-turned right foot & how i'm leaning forward, raised up onto the ball of my back foot, per the Goliath image.

Some issues:

-I didn't do the zornhau with arms/elbows retracted enough, therefore I impacted too close to his strong for my comfort.
-My arms aren't quite as raised as is shown in the Goliath plate. This may be an artifact of the especially long blades used in Goliath...not sure, I'll have to experiment.
-My back-hand grip is near, but not quite the same as, the grip shown in the Goliath plate. The front hand is pretty much spot-on though, in my opinion.