The role of sportive grappling in HEMA

[Michael Chidester]

Fiore is full of them as well.

[MichaelJPierce]

The guard is a dominate position because it offers you control over the top opponenants hips. If he had him in the guard it would not be possible for him to be kneed in the groin. This is not the guard.

Dude, with all due respect, I don't think you really know what you're talking about, because that's simply not correct.

[/b]

This is getting a little heated for my taste. I bid this thread adieu.

[Jake Norwood]

Hey everybody, let's not get sensitive here.

I don't think DJK meant any disrespect, and he certainly brought evidence to back up his position. Let's not sweat it. This is a fantastic thread.

Jake
(wearing his moderator hat)

[Keith P. Myers]

Hey Guys!

I haven't been able to follow this thread very closely because this forum is blocked at work. But here is my one concern over all of this talk of ground-fighting. Sure, it existed in the historical RIngen methods. But please, let's not get too carried away. I would hate to see what we develop be just another grappling art that people can't tell apart from everything else. We should keep this as historical as possible. After, just because the Japanese do fast draw sword techniques from the scabbard, and western swordsman had scabbards as well and had to draw the sword quickly at times....should we be working to develop a western equivalent of Iaido? I don't think so. Just as we respect the historical aspect of the weapons, we should do the same for the grappling.

[Stewart Sackett]

I think it’s useful to consider the histories of Judo & Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. Originally both arts had the same technical syllabus & training methods. Kano (who invented Judo) saw that matches were spending more & more time on the ground &, that while groundwork was becoming more sophisticated, the quality of throws was beginning to suffer. Kano stated that he felt ground fighting was a legitimate pursuit, but not what he wanted as the focus of Judo. So, the Ippon rule was instituted making it possible to win automatically if you delivered a decisive throw & time limits were placed on the ground so that people would focus on landing in dominant positions rather than assuming they had time for a positional fight.

The result was that Judo players developed with a strong focus on standing grappling & with, an arguably un-nuanced, but aggressive pinning game on the ground. In Brazilian Jiu-jitsu the competitive rules didn’t limit ground fighting & as a result the ground fight became extremely sophisticated, but less energy was directed at developing takedown skills.

In recent years the limits that Judo places on ground fighting have increased & the standards for Ippon have been eased to a degree that I do not agree with, but the original model of Judo, as put forward by Kano, seems a reasonable starting point for sportive Ringen.

[MichaelJPierce]

Excuse my rude retreat.

I take it personally when someone tells me I don't know what I'm talking about just on grounds that the definition of a guard is so board that almost any sort of attempted control with the legs from the back somehow disproved the major point I was making in that the position featured in the manual does not resemble any version of the guard I can find online for bjj, that's not to mention that I'm skeptical overthe anatomic correctness of the drawings used. Which were presented in the first place to justify that fighting from the back was taught as an effective way of fighting historically. I maintain the opinion that the position will more often be reach when trying to temporarily subdue the opponant and rarely would have been reached otherwise.

I like the comparison to historic developments of judo, for the sake that it's a great rule set for sparing. A desisive throw should count as if it were a good strike. I believe the rules for the upcoming nylon tournament division expresses just this. If both fighters go down I would perfer they reset since sparing is to simulate combat. Simply wrestling on the ground for dominate position doesn't reflect what you'd most likely do in combat(eye gouge, break bones, tare skin, etc)

[David James Knight]

Sure, it existed in the historical RIngen methods. But please, let's not get too carried away. I would hate to see what we develop be just another grappling art that people can't tell apart from everything else.

So is the answer to make it just another throwing art that people can't tell apart from everything else, instead of a well-rounded system that covers all ranges of the fight?

I find it interesting that you use the phrase "what we develop." The art has already been developed. "Developing" Ringen is not our place. Our job is to resurrect what fighting men far more skilled than us developed through actual use on the battlefield and in the dueling ring 500+ years ago.

just because the Japanese do fast draw sword techniques from the scabbard, and western swordsman had scabbards as well and had to draw the sword quickly at times....should we be working to develop a western equivalent of Iaido? I don't think so.

No, but that doesn't mean we should have a knee-jerk aversion to the unsheathing techniques in Fiore's Morgan MS because they look "too Iaido."

As far as I'm concerned, the Masters and the manuals are the only authorities on what does and does not belong in HEMA. Therefore, I will vehemently oppose any argument against incorporating historical techniques into what we do. I frankly don't care if I hurt anyone's feelings in the process, especially if the only evidence they can offer against a particular technique amounts to "well, I just don't like it."

[MichaelJPierce]

I frankly don't care if I hurt anyone's feelings in the process.

that will make you very popular. Even IF your philosophy and interpertation was 100% on, no one will be willing to listen to you.

Speaking of going by what's in the manuals, we can see by shear number of depiction of what techniques meant more. Of course we shouldn't ignore Fiore and what he says on drawing the sword, but at the same time we shouldn't dedicate as much time on that than the fundamentals of using the sword when it's already drawn. Just like how ringen in general is shown most fighting from a standing position with a weapon in hand. Not because we ignore the other aspects, but because there is more definate interpertations, because of the wider, albeit small in total, resources we have depicting the actions.

No one that I have taken to be a credible teacher or practictioner of these art will say that it exists today in it's fully developed state where it was abandoned centuries ago. We, as a community, are trying to develop our understanding of how this art worked in it's prime age. To assume anyone understand this art completely without having tried and tested it in a battle of life and death is simply absurd. We may never know masters in our day until the sword and close range tactical skills once again decides the fate of nations.

[David James Knight]

I will take doing the right thing over being popular any day.

Speaking of going by what's in the manuals, we can see by shear number of depiction of what techniques meant more.

If that were true, then we'd have to conclude that the Masters didn't think it was valuable to know how to throw a punch, because to my knowledge there isn't a single plate that explains how to punch. I think it is more accurate to say that we can see which techniques were not presumed to be widely known. Remember that the nobility trained in wrestling from childhood...

Of course we shouldn't ignore Fiore and what he says on drawing the sword, but at the same time we shouldn't dedicate as much time on that than the fundamentals of using the sword when it's already drawn.

I agree, but no one is saying that we should develop a Ringen-based version of BJJ. The entire point of this thread is to compile evidence that ground-and-pound/submission grappling techniques existed in HEMA and then to discuss ways those techniques can be incorporated into modern Ringen competition. The problem is when people want to restrict techniques based on what they want Ringen to look like, not based on what it actually is according to the record.

[David James Knight]

These last few posts on what it means to be a master are fascinating but perhaps warrant their own thread, no?